I just recently stumbled across this, and I think the idea of making this mod is wonderful! I am glad that fellow Tolkien canonists are behind it.
Anywho, I know giants have been mentioned, but has there been any consideration of also including vampires and werewolves (I couldn't find it through searching the Lore section)?
I am of the opinion that there was a race of giants, despite it being, perhaps, a left over of the original Hobbit story before Lord of the Rings was envisioned.
Although vampires and werewolves were only mentioned a few times in the Silmarillion, during the first age, I think that it might be possible that some lines could have lived on in obscurity until the third age. I realize that their inclusion might just have been the part of poor editing by Chris Tolkien, but it is mentioned a few times in LotR that there are things out there besides orcs (to paraphrase).
I think it would definitely add to the mod to have these three races (though I am sure they would be rare). Giants could, doubtless, be found in the mountains. Perhaps vampires and werewolves could be found in Angmar or around Dul Guldor. Angmar was inhabited by the witch-king in 1300s and was basically an evil land through the third age. Sauron showed up in Dol Guldor sometime in the 1000s and it wasn't cast down until the end of the third age as well. Perhaps, being evil, they would be drawn to those two places.
Just a thought.
Full Version: werewolves and giants and vampires
1. I guessing they would be considered as evil, thus they won't be playable in the first release.
2. Shouldn't this be in the questions?
2. Shouldn't this be in the questions?
This probably should be in questions, but its also a query on lore. I personally have never come across a direct reference to either werewolves or vampires, but similarly its not my job to research it......
*pokes Theta*
Ember.
*pokes Theta*
Ember.
I know that they would not be playable characters, and I do not think they are really vampires and werewolves in the common sense. I figured this thread would be best in the lore section because I was trying to reconcile where one would actually run into them. Certainly, if they still existed up into the third age they would not be too common and they would most likely not be able to live secretly with normal people (like classical notions of vampires and werewolves).
As for references, they are only in the Silmarillion. I do not remember reading anything about them in the HoME series (though I could be wrong). You can check the index at the end of the Silmarillion for Draugluin and Thuringwethil, who were the only named examples of each.
As for references, they are only in the Silmarillion. I do not remember reading anything about them in the HoME series (though I could be wrong). You can check the index at the end of the Silmarillion for Draugluin and Thuringwethil, who were the only named examples of each.
Concerning what vampires and werewolves are (no guarantee that this is correct, just putting together some information from canon and drawing conclusions):
In the Silmarillion, we find the passage
In the Silmarillion, we find the passage
| QUOTE |
| and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies. |
In conjunction with what we know about the relation of fea and hröa, werewolves are probably normal, although very fierce wolves that serve as a hröa for a fea that has been corrupted by Sauron to such an extent that it refused to return to Mandos after its death. It is rather improbable that the werewolves of Arda have anything to do with the shape-shifting humans we usually associate with that term.
As far as vampires are concerned, the Silmarillion provides us with the following passage
| QUOTE |
| He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampires form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw. |
The formulation of this passage strongly suggests that the creatures called vampires are lesser Maiar (corrupted by Morgoth, just like Sauron or the balrogs) that have taken the shape of exceedingly fell bats.
Ahem...
| QUOTE |
| Not all his servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves..... |
- Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring
| QUOTE |
| 'Listen Hound of Sauron! Gandalf is here. Fly if you value your foul skin! I will shrivel you from tail to snout,if you come within this ring.' ......... When the full light of the morning came no signs of the wolves were to be found, and they looked in vain for the bodies of the dead. No trace of the fight remained but the charred trees and the arrows Legolas lying on the hiltop. All were undamaged save one of which only the point was left. 'It is as I feared,' said Gandalf. 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness' |
- The Fellowship of the Ring
Vampires are a little trickier...but..there is also a 'cheat' you can use. This is assuming that you are discounting The Silmarillion (which of course, you don't have to....)
| QUOTE |
| Soon actual darkness was coming into a stormy sky....the great bats swirled about the heads and ears of the elves and men, or fastened vampire-like upon the stricken. |
- The Hobbit
As for giants....I took it at face value that there are such creatures. Probably Ogres and Wereworms of Far Harad as well (though the last could very well be something Bilbo made up....but then again there ARE Mumakil/Oliphaunts).
Ogres are only mentioned once, and it is in The Hobbit. It was during Bilbo and Gollum's riddle game. This IMO means that ogres are not real... This quote aswell backs up my idea that giants are not real eather. And rather were just used as a metaphor for a thunder storm.
"Poor Bilbo sat in the dark thinking of all the horrible names of all
the giants and ogres he had ever heard told of in tales, but not one of them
had done all these things."- The Hobbit
"Poor Bilbo sat in the dark thinking of all the horrible names of all
the giants and ogres he had ever heard told of in tales, but not one of them
had done all these things."- The Hobbit
| QUOTE |
| 'These were no ordinary wolves hunting for food in the wilderness' |
Gandalf goes on to say that they were wargs, not werewolves... so that has no relevence. unless I am mistaken.
| QUOTE (MDRud216 @ Aug 24 2004, 02:02 AM) |
| Gandalf goes on to say that they were wargs, not werewolves... so that has no relevence. unless I am mistaken. |
Oops...
Gandalf doesnt call them Wargs...but the text says that after the initial attack that its a group of Wargs that attacks the Fellowship in the hours before dawn.
Doesn't Gandalf say to bilbo and that that he would try to find a more or less decent giant to block the cave entrance again once they have escaped from the goblin caves?
I am not sure because I haven't got a copy of "the hobbit" nearby because i go to a stupid boarding school, but there u go. By the way I myself am working on a middle earth mod starting off at the dead marshes.
I am not sure because I haven't got a copy of "the hobbit" nearby because i go to a stupid boarding school, but there u go. By the way I myself am working on a middle earth mod starting off at the dead marshes.
Wow.
Good luck with your mod, but don't expect a reply. These forums have been dead for quite some time, as you can see by looking at the date of the previous post.
Good luck with your mod, but don't expect a reply. These forums have been dead for quite some time, as you can see by looking at the date of the previous post.
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