Good morning,

First of all, I'm not even sure this is the correct forum for this type of question. As I didn't see a "Questions about using the CS" forum, I'm taking a chance.

I am trying to learn how to do things in the CS, and create a new mod for possible distribution. The first step I'm taking is trying to copy a Sigil Stone. I'm trying to make a Sigil Crystal instead. I only want it to have one option (instead of a clothing / weapon option).

I made the new item in the CS, but I don't know how to change it's look. I know I have to change it's .NIF and .DDS to reflect it's new look (a Diamond), but I'm not sure how to do this. I read that I need to expand a .BSA file (Oblivion.BSA I'm guessing) but I have a couple questions:

1) Where do I extract the BSA file to, what directory?

2) After I extract it, and I (hopefully) find the .NIF and .DDS files I'm looking for, I just point to these?

3) Will this create added size to my mod, or does it just use the pointers, not the actual data?

4) Since I will likely be creating a couple hundred Sigil Crystals, is there an easier way to mass produce them? All I can think of is to just keep copying one of my Crystals and change it's properties. I was thinking about maybe creating some kind of script to just make them on the fly... NO idea how to do THAT!!!

Thanks for any assistance,

Sly

You won't be able to make it have only one enchanting option, I don't think, unless you use the Oblivion Script Extender (OBSE). If I'm wrong it may be possible to do using a script but then not an enchanting station. See what I mean?

When I extracted the objects from the BSA, I just created a new subdirectory called "unpacked BSAs" and below that one called "Vanilla" into which I poured the entire contents. You can pick and choose and just get one or two items out.

Ok on Question Number 2, the answer is roundabout, because you're not seeing things the way they are, I think.
When you unpack the BSA you will get the Vanilla Nifs and textures. They will NOT be, or reflect, whatever changes you made in the CS.

Ok. You're kindof going about this bass-ackward.

You should be first decide what mesh (nif) you're going to use (is it one that already exists in the Vanilla game world?)
Then using Nifskope, map the new textures (dds) to your substitute mesh. Sort of like what Exnem did with his wonderful Runeskulls.

Then you have to add them back into a new plugin via the CS (but you should only do this after you have engineered the Nif you're going to use, and mapped it to the Textures you're going to use, and given them appropriate Icons, and a ground or world object.) Until you've done that you're all discombobulated here.

Ok, so what I'm hearing is that I can't just point to the Diamond model already in the game. I have to extract the Oblivion BSA, use Nifskope to recombine the Diamonds features (model, texture, icon, and sound?) and add THAT to the mod first (somehow). Then copy the Sigil Stone item, modify it's properties and assign the model I created earlier to that.

Wow, this is MUCH more difficult than I had imagined!! But still, worth a try. Now I have to go figure out what Nifskope is... and does.

Wish me luck!!

Just wanted to double check, you're wanting to create a new item in the game, not replace the existing Sigil Stones right? Because that would suck (to my mind anyway-- just my humble opinion) especially if you were limiting them to only wearable (like armor & clothing) or only weaponry.

Someone had said to me at some point, that any objects that point to the same textures that are used by something else will not work--or will disappear. I'm not sure about the accuracy of that statement, but it seems like it's true from my experience with bad mods, still I'm not certain about that. There are other reasons that can account for the disappearing clothing phenomenon as well.

I would say that as far as a "best practice",
it would be better to create your new objects and place them into the game, then totally re-engineer something as important as sigil stones.

Even with clothing texture replacer mods, new textures are introduced.

I have considered before, switching pointers to nifs and textures, which may be where you were going with this originally. What I mean is that someone had mentioned that they would have preferred the vanilla legion helms to be switched with some other vanilla helms (I'm forgetting at the moment which ones they wanted.) The difference here is that only the nif pointers are changing, the nifs' inherent texture mapping remains untouched.

Now if you're changing to a diamond, for example, which is little, and doesn't make a very good sigil stone when you're plucking it from Oblivion, and then there isn't a "somethig nif" to take the diamond's place in the oblivion world, well you can see this gets difficult quickly. You need to think it all through and post again with exactly what you're really trying to accomplish, and I'll bet we can help you make it happen.

It's not really that hard, but you have to come at it with a bit of consideration.

Thanks for your patience with me. I'm quite new to all this, as I'm sure you noticed.

Yes, you are exactly correct, "switching pointers to nifs and textures, which may be where you were going with this originally." I want to add new items to the game world using existing item models. Not replace anything.

All I want to do is create a new item, a Sigil Crystal, which looks like a Diamond (or some other large gem). This Crystal will have only one option, not like the Sigil Stones' two options. For instance, I already made a Sigil "Crystal" of Fortify Marksman. I just copied a Sigil Stone, changed what it did, and placed it in the game on the ground (for now). Went in, picked it up, used it to enchant some boots (yeah, I know... but it's all I had) and presto!! Worked like a charm! Now all I have to do is change it's look.

I'm wanting to make such "crystals" buyable at a merchant (to be created later). Each crystal will have one option available, to keep the price down. I'll have something like 5 levels of each crystal available. I'd have crystals of all types, like Shield, Fortify Attributes, Fortify Skills, Fire Damage, Water breathing, Soul Trapping, etc... Basically, all the individual options available through Sigil Stones, just purchaseable through a merchant. That way people can get things enchanted, without having to be a Mage, as long as they have enough money.

I talked about it in this thread.

So you see, I really don't want to replace anything. And if using something like a Diamond for looks messes up the way Diamonds work in the game, maybe I can just copy a Diamond into my own item (SlyDiamond), and mess with that one all I want.

I REALLY appreciate the help!!

The deal is in the Bold.

Because it will have new attributes that do not exist in the existing vanilla game, it will be a new item. So Yup, you're totally on the right track with the "SlyDiamond". I remember that thread now. This is a good solution, something like Exnem Runeskulls, as I mentioned on that thread, as well.

SO, I recommend pulling the diamond out of the BSA, and the texture for the diamond as well.

Also there are a lot of nice re-textures for diamonds and gems out there, as well. I think I use one that's awesome called "glittering prizes" or something like that, which is nice because it adds a bit of oomph. I also suggest resizing the diamonds to slightly larger, or even using one of the other gemstones for their shape, and texturing it with the diamond texture (after you pull it out of the bsa).

When you unpack the BSA (I recommend using OBMM to unpack it) you will find the gems in
meshes\clutter\gems

put your nif, and the textures into a new subdirectory for the time being called "data" with meshes (put your slydiamond.nif in it), and your textures in a folder called textures. Best to rename the textures like slydiamond.dds etc. (You will also need to get the normal map, and the glow map if you use it, in that folder as well and they will need to be named the same as the dds).

You need Nifskope obviously, and I recommend getting NVIDIA texture tools so that you can manage DDS files in your digital art program and if you don't have a good one already, a good free one is The Gimp.

Ask if you need more..

Thank you so much for your help!!! So far it's not too bad.

Ok, here's what I did:

- Downloaded Nifskope, NVidia Texture Tools 2, and Gimp
- Installed Nifskope
- Downloaded Glittering Prizes, extracted .nif files and one .dds
- Copied Glittering Prizes Diamond to a Data directory, and Mesh directory
- Copied twinkle01.dds (also from Glittering Prizes) to Textures directory
- Renamed files to slydiamond.nif and slydiamond.dds
- Opened Nifskope, loaded slydiamond.nif from the Data directory (not the Mesh directory)
- Changed names of the fields you indicated to slydiamond.nif and .dds as appropriate
- Just seeing a white diamond shape, changing the texture to slydiamond.dds didn't seem to have any effect on the render
- Removed the .dds files, and replaced with the normal Diamond ones extracted from the Texture.BSA earlier. This includes the icon and _g and _n files. All renamed to slydiamond.dds, iconslydiamond.dds, slydiamond_n.dds, and slydiamond_g.dds.
- Changed location of the textures in Nifskope to textures/slydiamond.dds
- Still just seeing a white diamond.
- Saved the .NIF file as slydiamond.nif to the Data directory (not the Mesh directory)

I hope I'm doing all this correctly. So far I THINK I have a diamond created. Now I think I just have to move it somewhere so the CS can find it to use it in making my Sigil Crystals.

Am I right so far?

Let's go through this together..

- Downloaded Nifskope, NVidia Texture Tools 2, and Gimp --Check
- Installed Nifskope --check
- Downloaded Glittering Prizes, extracted .nif files and one .dds

- Copied Glittering Prizes Diamond to a Data directory, and Mesh directory
- Copied twinkle01.dds (also from Glittering Prizes) to Textures directory
- Renamed files to slydiamond.nif and slydiamond.dds

(set aside for the moment while we tough this out a bit)


- Opened Nifskope, loaded slydiamond.nif from the Data directory (not the Mesh directory)

Ok here's a potential problem, make sure any changes you make are copied both in the version outside the meshes directory in the data, as well as also in the data directory.

Be aware, also, that nifskope will also sniff out your bethesda data directory and sometimes will point to those textures so you may have to force it to find the correct directory by browsing. If so you may get the hard coded data directory as in C:\user\desktop\data\textures blah blah .. in that address I pointed out in Nifskope in the pic. That's ok while you're working but everything before "textures blah blah" has to be removed once you're ready to install the mod for testing.

To make it easy on yourself you can install your textures in your beth data folder now if you want. I recommend deciding what you want your future mods to be referenced as so that they will all share a top level folder inside your textures folder

as in c:\program files\bethesda\oblivion\data\textures\MrSlyMods\sparklysigilstonesmod\slydiamond.dds

Then the pointer in Nifskope would be to your oblivion data folder: "textures\MrSlyMods\sparklysigilstonesmod\slydiamond.dds"


- Changed names of the fields you indicated to slydiamond.nif and .dds as appropriate
- Just seeing a white diamond shape, changing the texture to slydiamond.dds didn't seem to have any effect on the render
- Removed the .dds files, and replaced with the normal Diamond ones extracted from the Texture.BSA earlier. This includes the icon and _g and _n files. All renamed to slydiamond.dds, iconslydiamond.dds, slydiamond_n.dds, and slydiamond_g.dds.

_n indicates the normal map, _g indicates the glow map.

- Changed location of the textures in Nifskope to textures/slydiamond.dds

good job.

- Still just seeing a white diamond.
- Saved the .NIF file as slydiamond.nif to the Data directory (not the Mesh directory)

save to both.

I hope I'm doing all this correctly. So far I THINK I have a diamond created. Now I think I just have to move it somewhere so the CS can find it to use it in making my Sigil Crystals.

Am I right so far?

Yes but something's fishy. And it's not a fishy stick.

Ok, what do you think is wrong? Was it the changing of the textures? I wasn't sure about doing that.

I copied the Data version to the Meshes directory now. I'll create the directories under my Oblivion/Data directory and look at it from there. What I'm understanding is that I won't be able to see the actual texture and all inside Nifskope because it's pointing at a directory that doesn't exist in the current path (just a reference from the games perspective). So I SHOULD see it in the game, though.

Oh, wasn't I supposed to increase the size? Is that a function of Nifskope?

Again, thank you so much for your help. I can't imagine how long it would take me to learn all this on my own!!

You must be able to see the texture in Nifskope. You have to in order to check it. If you can't make that happen you're gambling with what you'll get.

Also when you put your mod into your game data folder, make sure you've deleted any nif copy/copies that was outside the meshes folder!

Did I mention to use the same subdirectory folder paths for both meshes and textures for your mod subdirectories. I didn't mention how to do the icons yet.

I didn't give you any help with putting the objects into the CS, and I forgot all about archive invalidation (but luckily we're not texture replacing, we're adding "new" textures).


Changing textures sure isn't working because nothing is changing. You should be able to immediately see any new texture you map in Nifskope.

Give me a few minutes to upload some screens.




nearly any texture will do for testing purposes:

I think I have it now. When I CHOOSE the texture, it works fine. I can choose any of the textures in the texture folders. But, after copying the selected texture to the "..oblivion..\data\textures\MrSlyMods\SigilCrystals\" directory, and then I change the NifSourceTexture to "textures\MrSlyMods\SigilCrystals\slydiamond.dds" it turns white again. I'm guessing that this is, again, because it is just a reference that will be used later, not for rendering inside of Nifskope.

Sorry for the confusion.

To be clear, I currently have:

..oblivion..\data\meshes\MrSlyMods\SigilCrystals\slydiamond.nif
..oblivion..\data\textures\MrSlyMods\SigilCrystals\slydiamond.dds
..oblivion..\data\textures\MrSlyMods\SigilCrystals\slydiamond_g.dds

The texture I chose doesn't have a "_n.dds" associated with it. I'm using the sigilcracks01.dds because I think it'll look like it has power inside it with this texture. But I can always change it later, thanks to your expert instruction, after I see how it looks inside the game.

I wouldn't call me an expert, just a little further down the path is all. You'll get there.

A word of advice though, in Nifskope:

At the top File Menu Bar choose Render
You'll get a new box "Render Settings"
at the top you'll see the heading "texture folders" and an option box called Auto Detect | Custom

Click the button that says "Auto Detect Game Paths" and make sure your data/texture folders show up
If they don't, use the manual "Add Folder" button to map to your data directories.

You can use this option to map to your "working folders" wherever you have them, as well.

Ok, did that. Worked like a charm. Also added my data/textures working folder as instructed, and the Oblivion textures I extracted from the BSA.

As far as I can see, I still need an Icon, and I believe that I can just add the .NIF and .DDS files inside the CS using their buttons. Is that it?

Yup that sounds good, if you run into trouble I have some screens for adding clothing items, but it works the same. You should be ok. Don't forget the ground model with collision so you don't get a missing mesh thing. And when you make your Icon, don't let it have mipmaps.

Whoa, ground model with collision... Greek to me. I know it's the _g.dds, but where do I get one when the texture I chose doesn't have one?

How do I make an icon? And how do I know if it has mipmaps (whatever they are)?

the ground model is a mesh, actually, the texture marked _g is a "glow map" which is like a normal map but instead of adding depth it adds light.

When you make a regular texture that will be seen from close up and also from a distance the Mipmaps generate the views from the different levels of distance. Icons are never seen ingame, and the CS will generate an error if an icon has mipmaps attached.

If you use a premade icon you can sidestep this problem for now.

for your ground mesh, it's also called a world model in the CS:
(I made this for someone else, but you can see what I'm referencing at least in this screen)



An example of mipmaps view.

I see. What I'll probably do is find the Diamond icon and modify it using Gimp(?).

Now, I understand that the _g.dds is the glow map, finally. But where do I get the "ground model with collision" from? I didn't find anything in the Meshes/clutter/gems directory with any kind of indication of a ground model. Just the plain jane Diamond.nif.

EDIT: Gimp won't let me edit the icon.dds file. Says it doesn't recognize the format.

EDIT:EDIT: Got it. Found the .dds addin for Gimp.

Sorry for the new reply, but I just had to let you know...

It works! I just went with the original Flawless Diamond, changed the emerald.dds to be more bright green, took the DiamondIcon.dds and made it green, and put it all together in the CS. I now have a green Sigil Crystal of Speed, and it works just like a Sigil Stone.

I found that when you're in the CS looking at where you will place it, you can adjust the size there. However, you have to change the size of each one placed, as they don't seem to inherit this quality from the object you copied it from. Is there a way to change the size of the Crystal in Nifskope? I couldn't find anything that looked like a scale or size adjustment.

Thanks again for all your instruction and patience! I am very greatful!!

Yay!

And no, you have to change the size in the CS.

Congratulations!!! I knew you could do it!

Just in case you know this...

Is there a way to combine mods? For instance, I've got my Sigil Crystals working now, but I need to make a place to sell them. I'd rather develop the shop in a different mod so I can just test that portion on it's own. And I have a LOT of Sigil Crystals to make (hundreds). After I complete both portions of the mod, how can I combine the two of them into one mod?

This is beyond the scope of my current expertise, but I'm very interested in the answer. I would like to hear the answer however, from someone who has developed a pretty large scale mod at least, because, I'm actually interested in what would be considered the "best practice" from a seasoned group of modders, in fact.

Possible experts might include Lhammonds, AlienSlof, a host of others who may or may not be around to answer.


The non-best practice hack answer is it can be done and is done often, so you don't have to worry that it CAN'T be done. I'm just not sure if it should be done.