Hi everybody!

I have been nourishing this idea of a large island that starts completely wild and untouched and, at the end, if the player plays right, turns out into a big business with plantations, cattle and small villages all over the place.

Unlike most mod requests, I think I can handle most of the technical stuff (except modeling), but I am no good at all with words: creating story lines, plots, quest etc is alien to me, even in my native language. I could not even come up with a good title for this mod/thread. The subtitle is shamelessly cloned from Lisnpuppy.

That is why I am asking for your creative ideas for the main storyline, the side quests and the works.

To make sure this is possible, I will spend the next couple of months 'probing' the feasibility of the many technical features that will be needed, like how to turn a forest into farmland, how to get settlers to work the land, how to dynamically place rows of some plant so it looks like a farm field, etc.

During this period, I would love to hear the ideas you may come up with. Just dump your ideas in this thread.

These are the major guidelines I will stick to, so let's stay within their boundaries:

• The mod is intended to mimic a small, Middle Age settlement growing into a medium-sized city, including its effect in the surrounding area.
• There is no Main Quest as we know it. The player will need to manage and balance a few aspects of the game to keep things going. The player plays the cards right, the community flourishes. Plays it wrong or leaves things unattended for too long and things dry and shrink.
• The evolution (grow or shrink) should be based on player's decisions, not on player's actions. Although some decisions may require some actions.
• No big hero, savior of the world deeds. The need of the player's combat/magic abilities should be kept to a minimum. Maybe take care of some wild beasts or clean up a mine, at most. But even these could be done without the player.
• Side quests should be normal, every-day events/situations the player has to deal with (like a bad crop or a neighbor’s quarrel). Some may need some kind of compromise from the player. Some, if left unattended, should interfere with the evolution.
• No sexual/adult/mature ideas, please. In this area I can be very creative all by myself, thank you.
• [I will add more as they occur to me]

The remaining aspects of the mod are open.
These are some of my ideas, so you can get the picture of what I am talking about:

MAIN STORYLINE

I am not sure whether the player should be:
(1) Lady/Lord of the Land and the NPCs her/his subjects. Player rules from a throne room. Subjects are granted audiences to present their problems (side quests). Main quest balancing would be discussed with a group of ministries.
(2) Mayor of the community. Hears rumors of problems and has to go somewhere to solve them. Main quest balancing would be done by passing laws and regulations.
(3) Anything in between . . . or a mix of both . . . or something else altogether.

How would it start? The obvious "player finds a map of a lost island"? Would the island society start from a few natives or the player must hire a few initial settlers from mainland?

I imagine the end being an island with a fair sized city (with a nice port, some local commerce, etc) and a few peasant villages scattered over the island. Most of the area used for production and some wild life reserves to keep the environment healthy.

Is there a need for a storyline/lore to get from the beginning to the end?

And, of course, a good name for this mod is in order!

EVOLUTION – GAME BALANCING

My original idea was a farm island, so the player would have to collect a certain quantity of whatever ingredient to work as seed (say 100 strawberries). The peasants would clear a piece of land and grow strawberries (the land would initially show the peasants working on it and, later on, show ordered rows of strawberry bushes). After some time, the peasants would harvest the strawberries and the player would take it to a major city to sell (later on, as the community grows, this would be done automatically by merchant ships coming to the island)

To start this process there must be enough free peasants available, money to pay them, . . . what else?

Much later, if the player chooses to invest in it (money?, time & effort?, resources?), there would be an Alchemy Factory of sorts and the crops could be sent there and the resulting potions would be sold for a higher profit.

A similar concept could be applied to
- mining > smithing > weaponry
- cattle > food > clothing?
- Forests > timber > houses

At first, the player should do the hard work (like collecting seeds and selling the crop). Later on [maybe as a result of a side quest or based on the evolution level] some/all of these things will be done automatically [like a specialized peasant will do it or a immigrating merchant will provide the seeds and buy the crops]

What would the player gain/profit/achieve from being a good manager/ruler? Money? (I don't think so). Going up ranks within the community? Some very special items that would only be produced by the community at certain stages? Just the feeling of achievement?

What kind of things will be monitored and have to be balanced? I suppose some very basic society needs like: happiness, food supply, shelter, public health. Ideas?

SIDE QUESTS (some ideas to start with)

Some of the farm tools disappeared. Crop is in danger.
Production is low because a wild beast is attacking the peasants in the fields
[some NPC] is depressed because his/her companion is cheating on him/her
(. . . what did I tell you about my creativity? . . . )

It would be nice to have some (or all) side quests that would improve one aspect of the people needs while being bad to some other area. Like the player deciding one way it would improve general happiness but reduce production. Deciding the other way would have an opposite effect.

[YES, I am roughly think along the lines of the Civ/AoE games. Not the tech advancement or conquest aspects, just the growing communities. Maybe closer to The Settlers game of several years back.
NO, I am not trying to reinvent the wheel or creating a whole new game. I just hope that it will be possible to figure out a small set of rules (within the game engine capabilities) that will make this kind of evolving mod possible]


I suppose this brainstorming phase is where one finds most of the fun of creating a mod. I have my fun figuring out ways to make things happen in the game. Later on, actually creating the mod is mostly hard work.

So, let's get to work . . . hum . . . have some fun.

And don't worry whether it is possible or not. Make it happen is my job. [. . . well . . . just don't go overboard]

I don't intend to interfere much with the huge (*fingers crossed*) flow of ideas, besides some shameless thread bumps here and there. See you in a couple of months, when I hope I will have some of the technical building blocks figured out and ready to go.

I could provide something.

How to get the player to the Island:
Well, since your Island community is to be a growing one, maybe they sent out for People to join them to earn the benefits this Land has to offer.
This would be like the Handbills the english Government handed out to populate the new Colony in America.
They where giving away Land for free in Order to lure Settlers to America in Order to improve Trading in the Colony.
More People working on their Crops meant not only more Crops to trade with, but also a greater Variety of them.

So, your community wants to be a bit bigger, so they send out Flyers to attract Settlers.

"A New Life awaits you! We have fertile Land, far away from the Wars of the Past and struggles of today. We will take Care of anyone who wishes to settle here.
You can plant your Crops and see how it grows while our island will grow on you.
You will only need some tools and determination to build your new Life here, on _____!"



That will attract Settlers and the Player.

Now about Quests:

The Island may as well contain something useful for the Player character, like Master Trainers, maybe a teleporter to the Playerhouses in Cyrodiil.

The Place would start out with Farmers. the island will need something more. The People maybe able to grow their Food, but they will want something more. The first Thing should be a Ship. The Player could buy the "Serpents Wake" quite cheaply and hire a Crew to establish a Trade route.
The Ship will not be seen sailing anywhere, but as soon as the Player does this Quest there will be some more Goods on the Island. The Serpents wake could bring some Booze in, which brings me to the Next Point: A Bar.
The Player will provide Money. An NPC will build a Bar, or an Inn.

This could be done in Steps. When the Player decides he wont give up a large Amount of Money, the Inn will be little more than a Shack, like the Inns that can be found scattered in Cyrodiil, or the one in Aleswell. If the Player coughs up more Gold, the inn will be bigger.

A Chapel would be next. Grandmaster Jauffre would be pleased to send Brother Renip, which joined the Order recently, to oversee the construction of a new Chapel. Renip could be Priest there and a Master restoration Trainer.

With the chapel Quest, the island will need a decent Port first. Carrying cases of Booze Landwarts on a Boat is one thing, but Stones are another.

A harbour makes it possible to haul the Cargo directly of a Ship. Have the church in the center of the settlement, while the Inn would be at the Harbour. There should be some Kind of Bay to serve as a natural Harbour. Where the Ships lay Anchor to bring Goods or new Settlers, the Inn could be and then a real Harbour.

Yeah i tend to agree with madman but also thing that you should have people handing the flyers making it a little more personal. and the island shouldn't be some awesome quest ending in swords or giving the player all these extravagant and outlandish prizes. the ending prize is your own colony working under your command and maybe a new house or something.

you should be able to invest in the businesses too.

another thought i had when i saw this was that its a kind of under the rug job somewhere far away. Its a colony or some place of interest to the Legion and heirarchy. there should be small conflicts and disputes erupting on the island/place and it should be totally described as a great place. in the pamphlet itr should hint at the fact of sectarian violence or a land despute but treat it like no biggy. it should be written like its mysterious and and undercover job but your heroic pc want to check it out.

there should be a journal entry saying something along the lines of: "Hmmm. I've just recieved an invitation to settle down in a new colony run by the Imperial Legion and Heirarchy. Something is a little fishy but they promise some free land and other consolations. I might as well try it out. A ship will be anchoring in the Imperial Harbor (Waterfront) to take me and some others there."

then instead of a ship it should be a small boat like the bloated float or sometyhing that size. it should be beat up and when you are on the way you should run into pirates or something else. some of the other passengers should die in a scuffle and maybe a good firned you've met on the way to add some kind of urgency or new found mission to the story. when you arrive you should be stuck in the middle of a fight too. k ill write more but im at school so later guys hope you like the ideas.

How about...
Chancellor Ocato sends you to check it out. You go there and find the island to be inhabited by Nords or Nedes (Proto-nords). Nedes could be more accurrate because they'd be more primative. You travel to the highest point of the island. You hear a voice, the voice of Julianos, god of wisdom and knowledge. He gives you a gift to help the land. Then basically, all the Nedes/Nords become literate and can speak and yeah. It's a crap idea.
And then you could just go on quests to obtain things for the fledgling society, from the aedra/daedra and other stuff and some such, then guiding the formation of the land. It's the best I could come up with in 5 seconds.

Hmm. The price one must pay.

Well, the mod I am working on as a house mod, and time killer is a mod on a island, Little in the way of farming but it has a massive dock and even a shipyard (building ships). Since your mod will take place on a island as well, perhaps you could impliment a import/export dock on your island. The larger your society grows, the more things you can export, the more money you make.

Maybe the islands ruling class is of the "Let them eat cake" state of mind and the inhabitants are suffering from it. The player could be the one who helps with ideas and as his fame grows he would have confrontations with the ruling class, maybe a few "Civilized" duels. The players support from the farming community could grow eventually leading to the player becoming the new ruler. Since you seem not to want the"kill everything in sight" type of quests that are so abundant in Oblivion, your side quests could be to provide a service or to convince others to provide services to the inhabitants of the island. You could perhaps convince a ships captain to ferry supplies and commodities to and from the island by finding his missing daughter. You could help someone set up a farm or clear out the wild animals that are preventing them from setting it up. You could use the gold you earn from your efforts to invest in and help with the setting up of a banking system eventually earning enough to build new towns.

As far as a reason for the player to visit the island, have every homeless beggar in the game offer a topic of how bad it was back on the island that they came from.

How about this:
You start out with a scarcely explored island and an unknown area of ocean. With the Serpent's Wake or w/e, you take quests to find new land to sort expand your 'empire.' U find mysterious lands, fight / bargain with native tribes, it would be fun. I also had an earlier idea that you would find this place to be hostile, as it would seem rather sketchy that you would just be invited with open arms as ruler of this entire place. (Isn't that sketchy?) Maybe the inner government could actually be composed of necromancers and the later you find out about their deeds in your manipulation the deeper you have stooped yourself into those infamous deeds, and done unspeakable things with the town you would not have noticed before. So say you do find out and stop the necromancers (or w/e they are). Now you find your town is tainted with sin and you must gain the god's forgiveness (and do a crazy quest like in the book Knightfall, where your crops will not grow until your town is cleansed of its plague of evil. Of course back to your idea of "no hero of the world stuff"
A third idea is pirates. Maybe you want to be evil in this realm and when you hear about it you stow away in the (Serpent's Wake) instead of delightedly accepting the offer. When you get there you somehow join a band of pirates actually do evil things against the society. Again this would go along with my first idea of exploring uncharted realms and manning ships, which would be awesome if you could that in there too, because I haven't seen any sailing / ship mods added into this game yet.
And in response IWIronWolf's post, maybe as a pirate you could be a felldew smuggler or something of the sort and smuggle things like that through the dock

Very nice ideas you have QQuix. I didn't read it word for word, but only skimmed what was there, but here are my initial reactions and thoughts.

Acquiring the island.

While my own mod requires that you be the Champion of Cyrodiil and become the 'owner' of Evanore Island I actually later thought that this was a wrong move on my part, but I was too far along with the dialogue/quest making to change this without a ton of hassle. I would actually recommend that the player is working for someone else (the lord of the island) but eventually as said player helps out around the island more he gains higher prestige with the Lord and eventually (maybe?) the Lord steps down and grants the title to the player.

Getting folks to the island.

Personally, I would handle this by recruiting and hiring methods. Add various NPCs to the settlements (not the towns such as Skingrad, Bravil and IC, but the settlements like Pell's Gate) that the player has to find, talk to, and convince to move to the island either by persuasion or paying them.

Rewarding the player for advancement.

Using my own mod as example (since our mods are similar, yours is just far more sophisticated and complex) my rewards are handled through letting the player see their town grow and prosper, not in money or items. At first, you could use this method, and not give the player money or items as a reward, but as the entire island begins to prosper and evolve, then money could begin to factor in (and once you get to the automated refining of the crops/cattle/metals) then custom made weapons/armor/clothing/potions are then granted to the player throughout various stages of the quests while doing tasks for the respective refiner.

Prosperity and Balance.

Once again, using my mod as an example, my prosperity is handled by the players choices. For example, with my guilds the player actually has to choose the guild leader him/herself. Depending on the leader they choose, the guild will be more/less prosperous with different options available to them. For the fighters guild, if they choose one leader the player can send out 'parties' to scout the island for interesting artifacts and such, but there won't be as many guild members. If they choose a different leader, there will be MORE guild members but the scouting option will be lost.



As for handling the crop growing/harvesting and all that, it can all be handled through a script attatched to a quest. Even if the player can't see the quest updates themselves (though the journal updates) you would need different stages to handle the different aspects of the island (or different quests, which might be easiest). One would handle say the strawberries, the other would handle grapes, a third would handle pumpkins, etc. etc.

This could easily be done using a script similar to my construction script (but of course a bit more complex) and use enable/disables of the objects to show their harvested/not harvested and such like that.

I'll read your post more carefully soon and either update this one or (most likely) make a whole new post with new ideas and such.

I said that I would not interfere, but I feel uncomfortable not saying anything while you are adding lots of good, promising ideas. It might seem like I didn't care. But I care a lot, and all ideas and suggestions are precious.
But I will not interfere by saying which ones I like better. Mostly because I am not doing this type of assessment. For the time being I like them all and I am not ruling anything out.

And, Khet, since your mod will probably be out before I even start this one, I will make sure the story and events are different from yours so they won't overlap.

In the meanwhile, I am working on the first technical building block: an immersive, realistic farming script

What I am planning to do in the farming area is around these lines:

(The farmable (?) land will be previously divided into lots, but this will not be noticed as the land would be covered by the island’s original vegetation.)

1-Player provides the necessary resources (farmers, tools.etc)
2-Player provides the seeds of [whatever]
3-Trees and bushes are removed from the lot (first time only, of course)
4-Farmers start to work on the land
5-Every few days (?) a new row of [whatever] plant/bush/tree grows in the patch
6-When the lot is filled, the farmers start to harvest
7-Every few days (?) a quantity of [whatever] is added to a container
8-When the lot is completely harvested, the cycle restarts.
The next season, the lot may produce a different item, depending on the seeds the player provides.

I will keep you posted on the progress.

lol dont these ppl have spells to farm for them? (think it would be good to add in, because picking ingredients everywhere gets awful tedious) - not OT it's also an idea for your mod - new farming spells.

But yeah, I can write... creatively. I'll be standing by when I can help with some written dialogues for this mod. I think it would be nice to have my name in a mod.

It would be nice if these farmers grew some new ingredients. If this farming is going to take place on an island it would also be nice if there was some sort of a farmers market, an outdoor market with almost anything for sale. You could have furniture makers and blacksmiths selling their goods as well.


Hey, that's an idea. A flea market

i have a Decent stoyline idea!

You travel to the land to find the king dead. A bitter power struggle begins between his sons and you get caught up in it. You end up realising they're all power-hungry bastards and go out on your own. However, your deeds serving one of the sons has given you fame, and people follow you.

I would say most people like story threads woven into their deeds.
Story hints can assist players who do not quickly develop plans of their own.
Finding out why local things exist the way they do can be interesting and provide advantages.
A storyline need not dominate, but loosely connected themes might help.
I prefer storylines that act as guide ropes rather than rigid tracks.

Maybe there are milestone events that happen at certain points of development.
Maybe other events are on timers and (hopefully) you are prepared.
Maybe you can delay or hasten various events.

I'm sure people here could add rich layers to the island experience.

Hi, again.

First of all, let me thank you again for the contributions. Every single word will be considered when the time comes.
It would be nice if you keep the ideas coming while I work on the technical stuff.

Speaking of which, I am about to finish the first building block: the Farmer script.
I think it came out quite good and I will upload it tomorrow (I hope), after I finish the tests.

A little teaser for you:

The farming cycle is composed of three seasons: Planting, Tending and Harvesting

1-In the Planting season, the farmer goes to each spot in the field and plants a young, small strawberry bush
2- In the Tending and Growing season, the farmer goes to each and every one of the plants and the plant grows. At the end of the season all plants are full size.
3- The Harvesting season is self explanatory, I suppose.

The script turned out quite complex as it controls almost every single movement of the farmer.
And it is quite parameterized to make it (sort of) easy to change things like season duration, number and length of the rows of plants, size of the field etc.

I will let you know when I upload it

A few sample pictures of the seasons:
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Very nice QQuix! Very nice indeed! Also, you're welcome to check out the beta of me mod. I only had one other person aside from my self able to test it before play but we've caught all the bugs for the MQ. Right now I'm in the process of setting up the Prosperity and it'll be fully working next version. But, enough about my mod (download link is in sig if you want to check it out to prevent similar story arcs)

Few things.

First off, how large is the space you're working with? That field there looks a little large to me, even if it's meant for a large world space. But, that all depends on how big the city will be at the end... but maybe have a progressive growth to the farms? At first, just a tiny plot of land with a few rows (maybe 2x4 at MOST), then a slighly larger one, this time with a fence added, and finally the full blown version (the one in your screenshot)

Personally I'd feel that would be a better approach than suddenly having a huge farm for a small settlement. Generally, farms were barely any larger than what the family needed. Any surplus (if any) would then be sold to others, but the main point was to sustain their own family. That's why farmers were so poor, it wasn't a very reliable profession, but they grew their own food.


Keep up the great work QQuix, and maybe once you release your mod I'll ask nicely (read: beg) to let me tear apart your script and steal parts of it for my own mod!

Khet, you wont need to beg, or even ask. Everything I do, I release as modders' resource.

And, for being planned as modders' resources from the beginning, I try to make my scripts as adaptable as possible.

In this case, the field in the pictures is about 1200x1600 units.

But the size of the field is determined by two XMarkers at the SE and NW corners, so it is easily adaptable to whatever size is needed. The number of rows and columns are parameters in the code.

It would be possible for a modder to code some additional script to change the XMarkers positions and the row/col values dynamically to get the progressive effect you mentioned.

I was thinking along the line of some external factor affecting the speed of the farmer, e.g., an unhappy farmer would work slowly and would not fill the field at the end of the season, or would take longer to fill the field.
A progressive, dynamic field size would be a good alternative. I will keep this in mind.

I will check your mod after I release this one.

Really? You seriously need to teach me some of these things. I didn't even know it was possible to use Xmarkers the way you did! Oh, and check your PMs.

Don't really have anything else to add, but I'll be keeping a close eye on this topic and tossing in any input I can think of for each update of yours.

Took me a little longer than I expected, but I uploaded the farming esp here.

It is mostly a visual thing, but the script may be of interest for other modders.

Let me know what you think and of any suggestions you may have

And the link above is to a TES Nexus entry that I created to hold all my 'proof of concept' esp's. The Realistic Farming is the second one.

[EDIT] Just noticed that the The Evolving Society initials are TES. I am tempted to release a few versions in a quick succession: TES1, TES2 . . . I bet this mod will get a lot of attention when it gets to TES5. LOL

Maybe you've already thought of this or even don't like the idea, but...
What about rotating each plant randomly when it is placed?
I've found doing that (and a modest tilt) make plants look a bit less digital.
Minor size variations can make groups of the same plant look fairly natural.

I offer these suggestions only to make a complex script more complicated.
=)

I had an idea for a story posted on the forums, but no one seemed interested in it. After looking at the mod you want to create, I figured I could adapt the story to here:

As Champion of CYrodiil, the members of the Elder Coucil become concerned over the possibility of your influnce in choosing the new emperor, or even becoming emporer by fomenting a popular uprising! In order to get you out of the way, despite High Chancellor Ocato's reassurances, to "reward" you the lordship of the island. The problem is, although the island is technically still part of the Empire, there hasn't been a ruler there in 200 years! As a, result the population is very small and could be resentful of such a change.

Some things that could be done is the people at first start with a disposition of 0 toward you. Also this could add not just the development of the island but of a place for you to live - like a manor or even a castle! Train guards to keep the peace, develop the economy, etc...

id love to do some writing for the mod, really. however, i have no skillin the actual technical stuff at all, so if some one snt me something like: sorry, could nt do that quest, the Ac balance would mean that the mahjigger files would need new cell scripting, my response would be along the lines of um,....yeah.....of course. idea for how you obtain the island


ALSO, IF YOU DONT LIKE ANY OF THSES IDEAS AND WULD RATHER DO OTHER ONES, THATS FINE I SORT OF FEEL LIKE IM TRYING TO STEAL YOUR MOD, SORRY


when you talk to people and ask after "rumours" they say,: have you heard about the Juneflower, its a ship headed for a new world, where crops are plentiful and the sun always shines, its getting ready to leave from the water front, which triggers a quest where you have a to prove your a worthy passenger, and so on.

on arrival, its not quite what you had in mind. its all forest, with wild beats and native tribes. here comes the fist decision, you can either befreind the tribes, rising through their ranks to become cheiftan, or begin to wipe them out. if you choiose to befrend the tribes, you have to prove your self by going hu ting with them, succeed and you began as a Tribesman. you gain welath and ranks by going to chop wood, mining, and if your armorer skill is high, creating weapons and ramour, helping them grow crops. and so on. when you reach cheiftain, more settlers come, and try to turn the island into new imperial city. you can either choose to resist vehemently,going on mission to pioson water and crops, kill live stock and flood villages. or you can choose to join them, and hepl them build a new society, as i wil; describe in a the other option, of wiping the tribes out(minus the stuff involving tribes)

Wiping the tribes out,

now, its not stricly wiping them out. you can either choose to go to war, but its more like burning religious artifacts and sites, destroying mines, and a few small skir mishes, and eventually subjagating them as your slaves. Or yoo can chooseto befriend them and turn them over to your way of thinking, with speech craft and showing off orgign and speels and house biulding, etc, bnut not actually joining the tribe. eventually you become friend and work tghether to build a utopia

The "bits minus the tribes"

this is afetr either subjagting the tribes, converting them or choosing to hepl the new settlers (as cheiftain)
You must build a new city, and first off all you must clear the are. youhav to cut down trees with axes, the sped of your cutting is determined by your strength and blunt skill, also you must clear out wild beasts. once this is done, you must make fields and irrigation systems, the effectiveness of which is determined by alchemy and armorer skills respectively. you must go collect wood for houses, the better woods(offering more warmth and strenght0 ae found deeper into the woods, and are harder to find the basic forest edge woods. you must keep building ho mes, sorting out quarrels, clearing land and mining for more pipes and wepons until yopu have a fair sized town.

Farming
to farm, first you must clear an area and plant a field. then you must collect seeds or leaves or whatver,and plant them. they have a base 505 chance of growing when they can be harvested ans old. this chance can be improved with irrigation pipes. each field has a maximum of three pipes, each giving a bonus to the chance of succesfully groing plants. pipes have different effectiveness. a pipe made by a novice armoere will give a 25 bonus, and apprentice as 5% one, an expert an 8% one, and a master a 10% one. also they will need reairing, a novices each day, an apprentices once a week, an experts once a month, and a msters once a year. ipes can be made of iron or steel, steel ill ad a 5% bonus to growth chance.

Metals and mining
in the ilands forests there are many natural caverns where there metals. the most common one is rion, which can be made into steel at a forge, found in a town or village or city, it is just liking repairing a weapon, it starts at zero and you must get it to a hundred, a with all the usual armoere bonusses. they way metal woks is it is found in peices, and different objects will need different amounts of peices to create.

to mine metal you must get a pickaxe, and strike a metal vein with it. iron wil be there 90% of the time, other metals differ. to create a mine, click on the place on the map and select "create mine" npc will then go there and mine for you, getting more metal,but you have to pay them wages.
metals
iron
steel(iron)
dwarfen bronze
white nikiliuem
ebony gold

ill touch on house making, making objects and weapons, commerce and anythingelse some toher time if you want me too
right now my fingers hirt too much:)

bshaeffer
Loved the suggestion of rotating and tilting to get a more natural look. Thanks.
I implemented a random 0-360 Z rotation and 0-10 tilt on the X and Y axis'. It happened to be quite easy to do it.
New esp just uploaded at TES Nexus.

Juderodney and Boss171
Thanks for contributing.
As I said before I am not going to give my opinion. First of all, because I dont have one. I like all the ideas. Second, because I want to keep all approaches open.

I hope this don’t sound rude or inappropriate or inconsiderate or negative in some way.

Besides, I am still a long way from the point of deciding the main storyline.
I suspect that whatever the final lore will be, it will be a merge of all the contributions and will have a little bit of every one that contributed.

I actually really like the idea from Juderodney. That said... I've been giving your mod a bit more thought (and as a result I want to scrap Evanore and start completely over, making the entire thing more complex) but here's what I've come up with. These are just a quick overview and if you want better explanations of what I'm saying then I'll be more than happy to provide.

First off: The storyline. There's been a lot of good suggestions here, but short of explaining how the player acquires said land, do you really want one? Throughout it's development (I'm referring to Evanore a lot since our mods are very similar in concept) I was constantly feeling that working within such a strict storyline was hindering my progress. I couldn't do what I wanted to do in some parts because it wouldn't fit within the story line I had planned out. Personally, what I would highly recommend you do is give a storyline as to how the player acquires your island and then STOP. Make the rest of the 'story' explained through quests and books and notes.

Secondly: Evolution. This has been talked about in some of the earliest posts, mine included, but I wanted to touch base on this once again. There are literally thousands of ways you can handle this, but the problem is only a handful will feel 'right' and 'natural.' One of these, I believe, is what I've done with Evanore. After the town is completed Prosperity is enabled. You start at 50 Prosperity (out of a total of 100). Once a week prosperity is calculated and then objects are enabled/disabled. However, for something as complex as your mod having a global 'Prosperity' would be the worst idea you could possibly have. So, what I would recommend is splitting it up. Say, Industrial Prosperity (Farms, Mines, Smith, Alchemist, various other industrial-like positions) then have a Port Prosperity. (to control the size of your port) Another option you could split it into is Residential Prosperity. This would control how well your citizens are living as a whole. The higher it is the more money they have and their homes reflect that. Vice versa for a low prosperity. This is the method I wish I had chosen for Evanore, as opposed to a Global prosperity but it's too far along now to completely scrap it and start over. It'd push me back a good two or three weeks worth of work.

Third: Growth. I know we've spoken of this before is PMs but I think I've found a solution of sorts, though I don't know how well it would really work nor how complicated it would be. Basically, you create a custom mesh that would follow the formation of the terrain and then give it your 'default' textures. Underneath that mesh is the 'evolved' textures in terms of cobbled roads, tilled earth and all that. Having a custom mesh follow the terrain might be the best bet as it would look more natural and such.

Mining. Every town needs it. However, what I would recommend to show growth of the mines is to have certain areas blocked off ahead of time with rocks. Then, based on some variable or whatnot those new areas are revealed (rocks are disabled). After another variable becomes true the support beams are then built and enabled, and miners can then be found in the new parts.

Farming. Well, you've pretty much got this covered it seems.

Ports. While it's been said before the size of your port should determine what is sold by your merchants. If the port is small it's obvious that they wouldn't have much, mostly stuff found around the island. But, as the port grows the more 'exotic' the merchant's goods become.

People. This is kind of hard to do. There's so many choices you could go with but there's two that stand out to me. The first would be traveling to the settlements scattered throughout the game and recruit/hire peasants to come to your island. However, after the island/town is evolved enough people will start coming there voluntarily.


There was more, but I seem to have forgotten the rest while typing this up. ah well, if they come back to me I'll post again.

I could probably do some voice acting/soundtrack writing if you needed it...that's all I really think I'm somewhat good at. Example of my songwriting capabilities here:

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I've built an entire continent and many of these ideas would work well in Pellucidar (My world) I'm in the process of starting up a forum where I hope to get all the information about modding Oblivion with Blender, Nifskope and the Gimp into one place. Please take a look at the link and consider helping out with getting it started.

The Pellucidar Project

I would welcome any input and am not opposed to giving you moderator control of your own topic/ catagory. I will not however be having a download section, I want it to be more for keeping up with the development of certain mods and finding the help you need along the way.

@ SteeleMagic42

I love the music

Khet and exanimis:
The way I see it, all ideas and suggestions presented in this thread are public. I certainly don’t see them as exclusive to my mod and would not mind if anybody uses them. I suppose that asking permission from the original contributor would be a necessary courtesy.
I actually would be happy if some ideas from the people who tried to help me here were put to good use sooner than expected.
And I would be pleased to help you guys with some scripting, if I can. Preferably covering some common ground between our mods. Not sure if I mentioned before that I am no modeler.

This mod, if proven feasible, will not be ready in less than one year.
What I have in mind as the next steps:
- First, I will not do anything else like the farming thing. I did enjoy doing it, but, after seen what the NWJ - NPCs With Jobs team is doing, I realized that all I could ever imagine (and more) has already being done.
- In the last couple of days I have started working on the dynamics of the evolution, and I can tell you it will not be a simple task. It is along the lines Khet mentioned, but not quite. I will try to write down the general ideas and post here in a couple of days (I am a very slow writer. Believe me! This text took me well above one hour to write)

Khet: As I said, I will answer you in a day or two.

SteeleMagic42: I loved the music too. I will certainly check with you when the time comes. Meanwhile, there are many mods closer to completion that, I bet, would welcome your work.

exanimis: I checked the site. As an old Tarzan fan, I wish you all the best. BTW, I have that "Tarzan of the Apes" movie made in 1918.

And I encourage everybody that got interested in my initial description to check the "NPCs With Jobs" mod. Good chance it is what you want.
[EDIT] and chek this page at their forums. It links do a dozen videos of NPCs doing their jobs.

Woohoo! Someone actually likes it!

Here is the topic with my original idea, but nothing has to be set in stone:

http://thenexusforums.com/index.php?showtopic=85032

OK. Here are my initial ideas about the 'TES engine' (that is The Evolving Society engine):

SOME GENERAL RULES/ALGORITHMS:
a) Things flow like this: A + B + . . . + Z >>[Process]>> Product

b) A, B . . Z are inputs for the process.
They may be raw materials, tools, places etc
Some are required, some are optional

c) Each process is a cycle that takes a fixed amount of time. Not the same for all processes
Examples:
Seeds + Land >>[Farmer]>> Food after 3 days
Axe + Trees >>[Lumberjack]>> Lumber after 1 day

d) A process will not start unless all required inputs are available

e) The quantity produced at the end of the process cycle is variable and will be affected by the presence/absence of optional inputs and external variables and events.
Conceptual examples: Availability of fertilizers would increase food production for that cycle. A completed side quest would increase a global variable (like happiness, health or Khet's Prosperity)

f) The product of a process is stored in a global, virtual warehouse and may be input to other processes, consumed or exported.


With these mechanics, the player will be able to influence the speed and direction of the society growth by:
- Assigning an NPC to perform the process
- Providing the required inputs
- Providing optional inputs to improve production
- Somehow affecting some global attributes of the society.


PROCESSES and PRODUCTS

FOOD
Food is mostly used to keep the population alive.
A quantity of food is consumed by each individual resident in the island
A vanilla farmer should be able to produce food to keep 2 people alive
Food surplus is a requirement to increase the population

Required inputs: land and seeds
Optional inputs: Fertilizers, improved tools (plough?)
Other variables: Farmer experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Different food products like: cereals supply basic food to keep the population alive, while fruit production adds to a general attribute like health or happiness
- Maybe an individual would require an increasing amount of food along his life (this would be good for the general mechanics of the engine as it would allow the society to grow fast at the beginning and slow down as it gets bigger and more sophisticated)
- A second process to produce more elaborated food, which complements the previous idea

WOOD
Wood is mostly used to build/improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Wood is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Trees and tool (axe)
Optional inputs: Improved tools (?)
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Improvements in wood production could rely on an improved shop instead of an improved lumberjack
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic wood cutting, good to build basic houses and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships

STONE
Stone is needed to build/improve houses/shops (maybe roads)
Stone is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported

Required inputs: Quarry and tools
Optional inputs: Improved tools, some transportation technology
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Other later processes may be based on stone, like stone clutter or sculptures and statues


ORE
Ore is needed to improve houses/shops (initially) and boats/ships (later)
Ore is stored in the warehouse to be used by other processes or exported
Initially, miners will explore existing caves, later they will be able to excavate new mines

Required inputs: Mine and tool
Optional inputs: Improved tools, experience or technology (a book?) to excavate mines
Other variables: NPC experience, global society attributes
Other possible ideas:
- Maybe two processes: an initial, basic ore processing, good to build boats and a second, refined process to allow improved houses and ships
- Many other later processes may be based on ore, like building weapons and armors, clutter etc


Those are the basic ones I detailed so far.
Many other basic ones could be considered, like hunting or raising animals, fishing or even mud>>pots


MECHANICS OF EVOLUTION
Population growth:
The population will grow by one when:
- There is food surplus in the warehouse enough to keep the new member for a certain period
- There is an empty house

Considering all of the above, I imagine the initial evolution like this
Initial setup: An island inhabited by 2 farmers, 1 lumberjack and 1 mason.

Since the farmer produces food for 2 people, the population will not grow.
In order to start growing we need food surplus and a house (wood & stone).
The player will have to do something
Some options in this case:
- Get her hands dirty helping the farmer
- Reassigning 3 NPCs to farming and do the missing chores herself
- Just wait until there is enough wood & stone, build the house and then reassign all 4 to farming
- Go back to mainland and fetch some optional input to get more food production (like fertilizers)

Once there is the required amount of food in the warehouse, the population increases by one.
The new member occupies the new house
The player determines the profession of the new member

Based on some variables (population size?, happiness?, etc) new professions/processes will become available and the player may assign these new professions to new members.

These new professionals will bring some benefit to the island, but will also consume food, so the player will need to be careful to balance food production and population.


GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION MECHANICS

I am planning a final scenario with a midsized town in the initial landing place (population ~12) and 3 or 4 small villages (population 4 each) scattered around the island. Max population: 25-30.
I imagine half of them (the villagers) producing raw materials and the other half living in the city (merchants, smiths, shipbuilders, whatever)
At the beginning, let's say each NPC consumes 100 foods per day and one farmer produces 200 foods per day.
At the end, maybe 6 farmers will have to produce food for 25-30, meaning, a farmer will be producing around 500 foods/day. More if we have an increasing consumption over time.
Kind of the same logic goes for the other raw materials.


Back to the initial scenario:
The initial 4 NPCs live in 4 houses at the initial landing site (where the city will grow)
New houses are built in the far villages, so the new arrivals will live there.
I mentioned improved houses before: all these houses so far are Level 1

Somewhere along the line, city professions will be available and they will displace one of the original residents from the landing site. City professionals will require Level 2 houses, so the player has to spend some resources to improve one of the original houses or build one, or the new professional will not come/appear/whatever.
Some possibilities:
- Level 3 houses
- All professionals, including the initial ones, require/demand better houses as they become more experienced in their respective careers.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

All of this, of course, will change depending on the technical or mental difficulties I may have when implementing.
Again, ideas are welcome.
And again, if you like any of this, feel free to use it in your mod at any time.

I can help make side quests.

FOR EXAMPLE:

this quest is for later in the storyline

Fighters guild want to set up a guild on the island (this is a good idea even if everything else isn't)
But they need some way to get there, at this point if the player has constructed a pier and bought (or built) a ship, the quest may continue.
Fighters guild sends men over and they start building a guild.

Once the guild is built and fully functional towns people start joining up.

Later in the storyline pirates attack, if you have built the guild you can pay them to eradicate the pirates.
If you haven't built the guild, you'll have to form a ragtag group of villagers to combat them.

That way the guild benefits you, as you won't lose so many vilagers.

An attack is another reason I suggested a town guard. A small Legion presence could also be called for if the area were to be populated enough.

Yeah a towngaurd would come much later in the story though.

I mean whats the point of having a town gaurd if everyone in the town joins to gaurd it?

Me thinks a fighters guild should come first

XanAlderon and all,
Be aware that battles are not possible, if you intend the player to participating.
As I have read many times, the engine just can't handle too many NPCs fighting at the same time.

Don’t restrain your creativity, thou.
I think small fights are possible, like 3 against 3.
And large battles could be part of the lore, if simulated. Example:
- The player receives a message saying that pirates attacked and were defeated . . . player goes to the area a sees some minor damage to be fixed.
- Or the pirates wan and there is major destruction (to be rebuilt) and part of the surplus is gone.

- - - - - - - - -
And something to add to my previous post:

PLAYER's REWARD

First of all, a player's house is definitely in my plans. After all, this whole idea grew from an initial intention of building myself a house.
One possibility that I think would fit for a reward
- A growing house or castle composed of independent rooms
- Initially, it would have only the basic, usual rooms: living room, bedroom, etc
- As the island grows, the player would have the option of reinvesting the surplus back into the city (building new shops, hiring new skills, etc) of build himself a new, special room in his castle, like an armory, a library, a pool or even a bathtub (Jacuzzis are out)
Maybe the rooms themselves could be leveled and the player would have to use society's resources to redecorating them

I'm no J.K. Rowling or anything, but wouldn't it be really cool to rise up in the ranks of some small conqueror's (like a chieftain) guild who builds a town or something, only so that the player can create a mutiny and overcome him? I mean, the mutineer would be the protagonist. Or, the protagonist can remain loyal as a second in command, and the mutiny that would occur can be the climax, where there's a small scale melee that eventually takes the chieftain's life. I mean, the guild for the settlement can be like a small clan. If you wanted to add personality to the mix, you can add the corruption that eventually leads to the mutiny in the chieftain's character.

No need to credit me for this idea; if you want more, just private message me.

J.K Rowling isn't exactly the person I would refer to as a good author. I'm attempting to conjure up ideas without success, maybe I'll come up with something decent, but I have a story (for druids garden) idea now and some english coursework to do. Like you care. Why am I posting this?

Thats what I meant.




Wasder you are commanded to post ideas by me!

DO IT NOW

J K Rowling

"Rowling is ranked 552 on the list of the world's billionaires.

Edinburgh-based Rowling is the only British woman to be ranked a dollar billionaire. She is also one of only five self-made female billionaires, and the first billion dollar author."

Wow! The first author to make billions from her work. That beats out Stephen King, John Grisham,Danielle Steel , J. R. R. Tolkien and pretty much everybody else. You may not like her books but you can't say she isn't a good writer.

Okay, okay... I didn't mean for the J.K. Rowling thing to become a full fledged debate. Please don't debate the argument turned into a debate.

Well, I was reading about an Inca system of land division and imperialism, where everyone is a part of an empire through trade. The farmland was divided into thirds; one third for the village (like a municipal tax), one third for the king (federal tax) and one third was for the farmer to sell his stuff. The land would not be for sale, as it would in essence belong to the Capa Inca (the leader) but the thirds are like rent. They would work on the municipal and federal tax lands, and anything produced would go to their respective collectors.

I also think a socialist town would be an interesting thing too, where everyone did something for the entire town and every institution worked for the government. Depending on the size of the town, it could either be very interesting or boring. A small town just wouldn't have very much to offer, but a large town could be full of socialist values.

Another idea could lie in a very traditionalist theocratic town, where there are religious figures everywhere you turn. The monastery would, naturally, be the governing body of the town and all the guards could function like ordinators; religious guards. The town could be run by some priest-like figure or monarch, and the castle in which a normal town would have would amalgamate with the monastery. The way the player could rise up in ranks and become the new town leader is through political struggle between the empire and the monastery, where the player would take a definitive side (siding with the monastery for the people) and continue the storyline in that way. If you're interested, I'll pump more ideas into this.

QQuix,

I interested in your farming ESP. I'm looking to design a couple of dedicated NPC's to tend a large garden. Hoeing,shoveling & raking for 8-10 hours a day.

Tried to find your ESP but couldn't locate it. Where is it?

It is one of my Conceptuals

If you need any help, just ask (not sure the readme and code comments are enough to clarify how it works)

1) How to get the player to the island.
A messenger arrives and give you a missive sealed with your family crest, which you haven't seen since you left your parents years ago.
"Allow me to introduce myself. My name is __________ and I am the hereditary count of ____(land)_____. I had heard rumors of a distant (nephew/niece) that still carries the family name. Believe my surprise when I found it was you! The Champion of Cyrodil! Well, I am much relieved as I have a task to lay upon you. My days on this plane are growing short and I have no heir of my own. In fact, I doubt I shall still be alive whilst you read this missive. I have need of you here, to rule this land. Truth be told, my rule is one of birthright only in title. The people have chosen to allow my line to remain in control because we've done well by them. In the last few years however, times have been tough. Men of my land have left for war and not returned. Many of the farms here are fallen into disarray because, of the women and children left, too few are able to mind the fields. Our traders left shortly after the army. Even the beggars and thieves left to find more profitable customers! Help the people to plant the fields, hear their arguments and grievances, be just and above all else lead them. New peoples must be brought as well to the island. Not enough of our old land holders and workers remain. Too many have left or died. I have faith in you, your deeds and virtue are well known through out the Empire. Speak to __adviser__ once you arrive. __adviser__ will give you the rest of my writings that I leave to you. I pray they may be of use to you in ruling this once fare land. Come to this, the home of our shared family name for many generations, take up our title and bring life back to this land!"
(because of the mention of champion of cyrodil, this would have to be a quest activated only after the main quest line is completed. So either edit that line or just make it after the main quest! ;p)

2) Requirements for this colony/town to grow:
PC will have to preform actions like planting fields, purchasing new equipment (rakes, hoes, shovels, scythes) to equip the peasants. Some truly forgotten fields may have to be plowed (create work horses & plows). Homes will have to be repaired or built. Silos for grain storage. Town square will need to be renovated (later task, after farms are manned and skilled tradesmen wish to move in.) A militia will need to be raised to protect the settlement (either find your own people or pay Ocato to station a legion detachment there). Dock will need to be repaired and enlarged (repaired first, later enlarged to handle bigger shipments). A local mine will need to be cleared to allow workers in, eventually this will attract blacksmiths and later artisan weapon/armor smiths. Mine could be infested with goblins/vampires/undead/necro Lich King/whatever. (If you use the Lich King, that could be an additional reason for the crop failures. Lich poisoned the land with it taint, so in addition to defeating him the PC must undergo some quest to restore life to the earth)

3) Additional thoughts:
Certain crops will be required for certain items: make fruits and veggies (at certain quantities) able to be morphed into 'shipments' ready for sail at the docks. Wheat will be required to create either flour or cloth bolts (unless you want to make a cotton plant, either way). Cloth bolts can either be sold at the dock or ,once the craftspeople show up, sold to them as materials for clothing production (cause auto spawn after shipment received). Same process/idea can be applied to the mine. Ore to blacksmiths make tools,plates,cups; or to artisans to make armor, weapons. Herders would be required to care for sheep, deer, or boar. Animals then go to vendors to be sold as mutton, venison or ham. Berries could be sent to vintners for ale, mead and wine.
Problems will come up, who gets what fields, what kind of persons are allowed onto the island, what punishment does the thief receive after being caught. These decisions will then affect the residents and how they react/work/produce.
The home for the PC could begin as a somewhat dilapidated mansion or large plantation house. After each successive growth level, the people decide to come together and improve a portion of the estate. (yep, i'm stealing this from Civilization!) This will also act as a good indicator of the peoples feelings towards the PC. Perhaps there could be a Popularity indicator of some sort. An adviser to the PC that tells what still needs to be done, who is asking for help and if the people are behind him?
Money could be an eventual reward. Weekly income based on the production of the settlement, in the form of taxes levied on merchant/shipment sales. Allow PC to alter these taxes to affect popularity/growth.
Additional rewards could be special weapons or potions given by the artisans/subjects in gratitude to good leadership. Disgruntled citizens may occasionally request a challenge of arms with the PC in an effort to find redress. (perhaps the PC could elect a 'champion' to fight in his place? Could also be used as a reason to have regular matches within the community, the winners receiving a prize purse from the settlement coffers.)

Oh, and as far as a name goes.... rachat? or estinzione? or rescate? Abzahlung? afkoop? that's 'redemption' in french/italian/spanish/german/dutch

Well thought out, but isn't the whole long-lost-distant-relatvie plot a bit cliche?

you betcha! that was the quickest reason I could come up with that would compel our hero to go to this overgrown island. By all means, spice it up/change it/slaughter it, resurrect it and kick it again! whatever needs to be done. I sat down after reading the original post and knocked that out in about 15 mins or so. honestly didn't put a whole lot of hard thought into it. Just gleaned my brain for quick ideas that could help in the storyline/playability of the mod.

Can't you just put the story as a generic save-from-tyranny plot like loads of other stuff? (Star Wars, Inheritance Trilogy etc..) My brain isn't working well right now.

wow, i did not read all the post but enougth to say that this will be a massive work to accomplish ! i love all the idea that as been said already... i wish my best to those who works on that project !

Hi.
First, as always, thank you all for the contributions.

Second, a quick, weekly progress report: I have been working hard on the TES engine. Progress at this stage is very slow. I have restarted from scratch a couple of times in order to get a better 'engine architecture', if I can call it that. But it is going well.

Third, I need some help with the subtleties of some English words.
Most of the TES economy will be based on processes.
Processes take something as input and generate some kind of product.
Processes take place in a specific building, place or area and are handled by a specific worker.
I need your help to decide which would be the best word to describe some of the inputs, processes, buildings, professions and products. Ideally, a single word for each.

Example: a quarry produces rock(?). A stone shop (?) transforms rocks (?) into stones (?) (cut/polished/minced/whatever rocks).
Questions: what are the words to describe raw stones out of a quarry and somehow finished stones to be used in buildings? What is the name of the place and the process that transforms one into the other? Could I have a third process to further refine the stones and produce, maybe, marble to be used in upper class buildings? What would be the words to name the place, process and product?

The processes I am working with are (still the very basic ones):
(I have been thru Dictionary.com and Wikipedia, but I could not get anything better than this)

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT
Seeds >> Farm - Farmer - Farming >> Food
Trees >> Forest - Lumberjack - Lumberjacking >> Logs
Logs >> Sawmill - Sawmiller - Woodcutting >> Boards
[none] >> Quarry - Stone miner - Stone mining >> Rock
Rock >> ?? - Stonecutter - Stonecutting >> Stone
Stone >> ?? - ?? - ?? >> Marble
[none] >> Mine - Miner - Mining >> Ore
Ore >> Foundry - ?? - ?? >> Ingots
Ingots >> Smith - Blacksmith - Blacksmithing >> Metal parts


For the conceptual phase, I am using the name of the product to name the worker. E.g. a rocker is the quarry worker that produces rocks. A Stoner is the guy that transforms rocks into stones. lol . But it would be better if I started using the final, more proper names. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Suggestions on further use of wood, stones and metal are welcome. Ships, weapons, armors and tools have already been suggested.

An alternative to Lumberjacking could be Lumbering.
An alternative to Sawmiller could be Sawyer.
Ore >> Foundry - ?? could go Smelter - Smelting >> Ingots.

I could see Rock / Stone going a different way, possibly.
Quarries often produced finished stone on-site by Masons.
Maybe rough cut 'Stone' is good for walls, bridges and forts.
Maybe finer cut 'Bricks' are needed for homes and shops?

Just ideas. Take em or leave em. =)

Thanks. Those are some of the missing words.

I suppose you are right. Stones out of the quarry would be used to build Level 2 buildings and when the player can afford a masonry, it will produce bricks, which, in turn, will allow for level 3 buildings.

Triggered by a suggestion from another thread, we could have some optional city enhancements to boost global community indicators(like happiness or health), so the player may decide which one to build, depending on which indicator is falling behind.

In case this turns out feasible, let's start a new line of suggestions for city enhancements and their effects
I can think of a few to start with:

Public baths to enhance Health
Parks / trees-on-sidewalks to enhance Happiness
Public lights to enhance Security (or reduce Crime, although I am not sure I want to go SimCity here)

Suggestions for global community indicators are welcome. As well as city enhancement(s) that may affect them.

Well, let me reason a little bit first. IMO a farmer doesn't realy bear in mind anything else than his survival when creating food. Therefore I'd suggest two new buildings:

Farmers market.
Comming from this logic a farmer would most probably only create enough food to cover his needs a little extra to do some small trading with the nearest neighbours for basic supplies. A farmer's market is basicaly a place where such a farmer could sell any and all surplus he might have created, so I suggest this builsing to be what would allow a centralised counter for all of the food on the island. Otherwise it should IMO be bound to a small area like the farm itself or just the closest neighbours = the village the farmer lives in.

Granary.
Same logic applies if you don't produce surplus food because you can't be sure if you're able to sell it then you don't need to build a stockpile for this food on your farm. I suggest a granary would be what would allow your comunity to stockpile large amounts of food and also to increase food production because now the farmers can create a surplus of food because they know that there's a place to stockpile it.

Moving on. The Inn could/should have several levels - higher levels would allow/atract more/higher level business, which could/would in turn atract richer citizens. Rich citizens are of course happier to exchange money for protection and also atract crime, so I guess that that's also what city guard/legion should be based on. Combinations of prerequisities could allow for buildings like barracks, an armory, a fort, archery range etc etc.

I also think that there should be other buildings that don't increase stats, but limit the max stats if those buildings aren't build. Severs are a very good example. (No matter how many bathouses you build the city is still dirty without severs and therefore the overall health level can't realy go up)

A basic city guard should have a similar effect - you just won't be happy no matter how many fountains you see per day if you're raided by pirates every single day.

Stop me if I'm going too deep.

Here are my changes/additions to the list(Few have stayed pretty much the same.);

EDITS;

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT
Seeds >> Farm - Farmer - Farming >> Food(Wheat/Meat)
Trees >> Forest - Lumberjack - Woodcutting >> Logs
Logs >> Sawmill - Sawmill Operator - ?? >> Planks
[none] >> Quarry - Miner - Mining >> Stone
Stone/Marble >> Masonry - Mason - ?? >> Building materials
[none] >> Quarry/Mine - Miner - Mining >> Marble
[none] >> Mine - Miner - Mining >> Ore/Gem
Ore >> Foundry - Smelter - Smelting >> Ingots/Bars
Ingots >> Smith - Blacksmith - Blacksmithing >> Metal parts

NEW;

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT
Logs/Metal parts >> [No specific location, workshop possibly.] - Fletcher - Fletching >> Archery supplies (Suggested already?)
Logs/Ores/Stones/Gems/Marble/Metal Parts >> Workshop - Crafter/Crafts(wo)man(Possibly specialized in some area?) - Crafting >> Jewelry/Furniture/Basic items etc.
Barrels/Ingredients(Mostly from farming, vary for different drinks.) >> Brewery - Brewmaster/Brewer - Brewing >> Alcohol
Food/Alcohol >> Tavern - Barkeeper/Barmaid - Service >> Money
Money >> Tavern/House - Architect - Building/Construction Designing >> Money

ihr's(I hope you don't mind me using ihr for short of your nick. ) ideas as I percieve them;

INPUT >> PLACE - WORKER - PROCESS >> PRODUCT
Food/Ingredients >> Farmers Market - Stall Seller - Selling >> Money

COST/MATERIAL USAGE >> WORKER(S) - PROCESS >> RESULT -> ENABLES
Building materials >> Miner/Mason/Architect - Construction >> Sewer System (<-Badly built sewer system could cause parts of the city to collapse, this could not be implemented I think, but making the sewer system impossible to build without good plans would be wise imo.)
Building materials/Money >> Mason/Crafter/Architect - Construction >> Public Baths ->Hiring cleaners & other employees to the bath house.
Seeds/Plants/Money >> Gardener(Possibly Architect, especially if the city layout isn't supposed to be completely random.) - Gardening >> Parks/Strolling areas/Trees, bushes & flowers in the city.
Building material >> Mason/Crafter - Construction >> Granary -> Stocking on food in case crop is lost to prevent people from starving to death.



PARTIALLY NEW;

COST/MATERIAL USAGE >> WORKER(S) - PROCESS >> RESULT -> ENABLES
Money/Weaponry/Armour/Building material >> Mason/Crafter/ - Construction >> Barracks/Armory -> City Guard/Military training
Money >> Weapon Master - City Guard training >> Trained City Guard/Legionaires
Wood/Metal parts/Hay >> Fletcher - Construction >> Archery Range ->Archer training


Just thought I'd drop my ideas in, some of them are a bit rough around the edges like the Brewery and I wouldn't find it weird if some/most get left out. Do what you want these ideas of mine, now to just type my opinion on some other things regarding how a city/this mod can/would work:

-I do believe there could be and there likely is a basic Militia working inside a settlement/town/city before an actual City Guard is formed.

-Hiring outsiders as guards is risky as their loyalty is questionable, it's better to train locals/local militia members further and assign them as guards. This could be simply implemented by pre-assigning a few NPC's that are suited and interested in Militia/City Guard work, although giving the player an option to choose several NPC's to work in the officer positions of the guard/militia(Whichever is currently in use.) from all the NPC's and then just generating random guards like in all other cities. That way at least the officers such as the captain of the guard would likely have always a different background depending on what choices have been made by the player earlier(If you manage to add cause & effect to some extent that is, I know adding it to full extent could be a far too time consuming task depending on how many options are given and how many NPC's are linked to the choices.)

-Basic militia training could be initiated/done by the player when the settlement is starting to grow in to a small size town, city guard training would be a far bigger task and the player wouldn't likely have the time to organize it all.

-Hiring people for work on different things could just happen automatically after the construction is complete, same could be with the guard training, but I think it would be fun to leave at least some expenses to the player as many are complaining about having too much money. I do't see a need to make anything overly complicated though, an employment office could be good to have later when the town grows into a city.

-Randomized thief encounters inside the city and small bandit attacks on the city borders every week/every few weeks would liven things up a bit, should the player be there at the time of the event.

-Making the town DLOD could be problematic unless you start up with at least a palisade wall large enough to fit the full sized city in it to make everything in a separate cell in order to lower the lag on mid range/lower end PC:s, however this would likely have issues of it's own generating the correct DLOD. I'm not sure if you can create a changing DLOD object though. You could try circumventing this by adding the town in the mountain region and having just a giant gate on the pass leading to the city, while the city itself would lay lower, thus removing the need for any DLOD objects apart from the gate. This on the other hand would add some limitations to the customization options that would be given to the player regarding the city, but this is just an idea I'm throwing here and correct DLOD generation might not actually be an issue at all.

~Elraine

P.S. Yes, I added bshaeffer's 'foundry' suggestion. I also only skimmed through the majority of the posts, so forgive me if these have been suggested/added earlier. I also know that most of my ideas are more than likely to be over the top, but I hope you'll find something useful among them. I'll fill the list if I come up with something new. Some of these ideas are halfway finished and thus lack either pre-requisites or the final product/effect, I'll add them later aswell if I can come up with something interesting unless someone wants to just continue from this.

P.P.S. I apologize for the big wall'o'text and any typos it may contain.

P.P.P.S. I'm also rather tired while typing this, so that sentence above is rather important. Once I get some sleep I'll come here to fix my mistakes.

Wow. Lots of ideas. As always, I like them all.

At this point of development (starting the 3rd version of the engine architecture) I read your posts considering whether the present architecture will support the implementation of the suggestions.

I am glad to say that most of the ideas are supported, in a sense that they are processes that consume a certain amount of materials and may require the presence of something (a previous building, a specialist, etc).

The one that was not supported was the concept of limiting the growth of an indicator until something happens, like IHRE's suggestion for the sewer. I think the Granary would also fall in this category: it is kind of intuitive that you cannot accumulate more than X units of food until you build a Granary to keep it for longer periods.

Although this capping capability was not in the plans, I think the architecture allows for easy adding of new types of 'rules', so you may continue to suggest things along this line.

About Money:
I think the player should not be allowed to take vanilla gold out of the island.
Main reasons are: (1) eventually, the island would give the player a steady flow of money. If the player plays this mod at the beginning of a new game, this easy-money would spoil the game experience (like the struggle to accumulate money to buy one of the houses). And (2) if the player goes to the island later in the game, money is not a problem and would not be a motivation to play the mod right.
So I am considering removing money altogether or create a local currency that would not be good anywhere else. The local money could be used by the player to, say, build a new room in its island home.

DLOD:
I think you touched a serious point here, Elraine.
There will be different buildings at the same spot at different moments in time. I seriously doubt the game engine was built to support this scenario. Not only the buildings. I guess most of the island will be covered with trees at the beginning. At the end, many areas will have the trees removed and replaced by farmland. So, depending on how you generate the VWD objects, you either see (from a distance) farms that are not there yet or don’t see farms that are alreay there.
We will have to live with some wrong LODs, I suppose.


And don't worry about going too deep.
I hope imagining those things is kind of fun for you guys (and it does help me conceive the architecture).
I kind of go overboard myself with some ideas like:

Multi-Skilled NPCs:
This is still a vague, recurring idea of mine: all NPCs in the mod would have a list of skills the same way the PC has one, but instead of vanilla Strength or Speed, the NPCs would have a list of professions, like farmer or smith.
Some possibilities:
- Choosing the right NPC to each job would be an important part of balancing the evolution of the community
- The skill is improved as the NPC use it or by books/spells the player provides (quests?)
- The player could have an NPC working at the same job all his life, which would turn him into a very efficient professional, like a master smith or something.
- Or the player could make him switch jobs and accumulate experience in several crafts . . . (I am not sure why the player would do that, but it would be nice to have a multi-skilled NPC and get some advantage out of it)
- It just occurred to me a good reason for the above: sooner or later the player will get tired of micro-managing the island. At this point he should be able to pass the responsibility over to a few ministers or secretaries and leave the island in an Auto-Management mode. The broader the experience of the secretaries, the better the island would be managed.
- Recruitable NPCs showing up at the inn or at the Recruitment Office would have random skills, so every once in a while a real good professional would show up for recruitment. The better the city (the inn? the docks?), the better the candidates.
- Anyway, it is just a dream . . .