This topic is about the whole imperial army
What or How would be the best way to go about this issue, the image, lore, what have you. The heart of the Empire to me at least look very weak. Nothing calls to its strength nor to the power. We hint to a little in the topic on the blades, about there isnt a major citadel overlooking the imperial city. The fact there is little no forts between the cities, just raise question..Not one active fort...

Shouldn't there be more imperial military installation across map, it is the heart and where you would think the recruitment would be based at. I could see the empire having military academy, in the imperial city. Naval Shipyard, imperial stables, citadel, ect, just to bring the image the empire to life. Who know we might interest someone into making something...

What are your thoughts on the matter?

There are many forts around the IC...all in ruin. At one time the territory was well defended and kept at fighting prime,as to why things fell into disrepair is open to speculation. Also the legions are out towards Blackmarsh and Skyerim putting down rebellions.

Like rome it too once covered vast areas,but as an empire grows so does it become weak in spots,an army travels on it's stomach,and once you send legions off to quell uprisings, you open the gates for bandits,marauders etc to move in,which they have done.

I agree. However military might is completely non-existant in Cyrodiil at least. Battle of Bruma 15 people show up. Epic.

thats the max the game engine can support. But it would be more realistic to see 5-6 man patrols out in the wilds,rather than one or two if your lucky.
And small 15 man keeps would add to the ability to put down bandit camps.

Seems to me that something like this is just filled with possibilities. 'Restore' some of the old forts, make them look less run-down and ruined, move a unit or two (as in the group units) and make a unit that patrols around the keep (not TOO far from it) and add some more guards to the roads. Even with the legion stretched so thing you'd think they'd at least have the capacity to be able to defend SOME of their land, instead of ALL of Cyrodiil falling prey to Deadra, bandits, and cute-fuzzy man-eating critters. Seriously, guards don't really exist outside of cities. The least they could do is patrol around the cities. (outside the walls, that is.)

good point,traditionally keeps were border watches, and yes guards outside the walls would make sense. Also no general worth his salt would leave not one legion behind to protect the capital city!

this is great, I like all these ideas.... Dezdimona, it would be nice to see border forts on the passes with Skyrim and Hammerfall that would give it element of realism. Now how about a main beacon where this army that is left behind to stay. My goal would be to try to look a land like the map on Medieval total war. Massive walled Fortress an/or Citadel where you would find this left behind army. Stable, master armors, massive weapon factories, siege workshop, barracks, archery, marshal training . where as player you could truly see the power of empire at work. You would see the standard legionnaire, but you also see heavy troop types. I am sure like most military you have an occupying force and you would have those in more professional army. Those in this professional army, would be the assault troops not really the sort to occupy, but to protect and defend thats them. This left behide army that Dezdimona is hinting to. Here is something I was just playing around with, I called Imperial Lancer. It would fit the bill, for heavy mounted united.



I have seen bits about Imperial Navy, where are they?

1:) Small system of forts, man with legionaries
2.) At least some sort of military presents in the area legion what have you....
3.) Border forts
4.) Massive Fortress and new troop types
5:) 3-5 man patrol system

Good ideas. And where are the archers. First line of attack were always archers,usually followed by light infantry. Your mounted light and heavy horse were usually kept to the center(heavy) and the flanks(light) so there speed and crushing power could always be brought to bear. Light infantry was always followed by the heavy,this allowed maximun use of man power for forcing the enemy back or to split ranks allowing your light horse to manuver and cutoff full enemy retreats as well.

Interesting ideas, one and all. I would love to see this done. More troops, forts and outposts sound great. I think that some of the traveling groups of soldiers should be a bit on the bandit side and rob the player that way you would never know whether to trust the guards or not.

nice work on the lancer forsaken

more archers are definitely needed, I plan on adding archer statues to my mod if I can ever get them made



I think they would look great along the top of a city wall

very cool and a great idea

That lancer just some armors and weapons I put togather.... give credit to those who came up with it in first place...
type 2 on the lance
Paladin armor from pale rider
dalls black baron shield and cape..
I have Norman light lancer also ill have to put up on here. I have few pics that show sound units as they should be... I like the idea of the Cities having some type of stone protector. An archer for Anvil, Bruma an Axeman... so on....


back to Fortress to house this idea, there only one that comes to mind its already made mr_siika Griffon Fortress. Image making that fortress just the keep of this mighty citadel. Wall around the keep place all the workshop and training with in those walls, making the walls a little higher than normal. 2 sets of walls would be impressive enough. Have this imperial professional army stationed there it soul reason is to protecting the capital in times of peace. Maybe you could put in a protected harbor for Naval shipyard and port. That would help to link in the coast guard....

The IC should also have more defense equiptment. Since it was the "throne" of Tamriel,where are th piles of rocks that can be dropped on attackers?,cauldrons for boiling oil?. Also an entrance would usually have a double portcullis system for allowing the ability to trap and cut off enemy soldiers from the main unit. Being surrounded by water is great idea, and tree lines have been established,but the IC needs a bit more militaristic look to it!

With the Imperial City you need to keep a balance of its beauty an adding defense system. IC is made very well with out having do much to it, its location is great very defensible. The only thing I would really do would be to put another wall around IC starting at the main bridge. Keeping with the style of IC walls and towers. That would allow for Harbor to be protected, a gate house right at the end of the bridge as you come on to the imperial isle. That would give the IC the protection that so does need, but it would not take away from out right beauty of it. If you are using landscape mod like I am keeping its beauty is key.

To be water locked city, you do not see major port, anvil looks right why not imperial city and few other that are on waterways
just on the fact the IC should have massive merchant port, with grain stall, shop, fresh fish ect. Now that would raise the question how would the IC, feed and manage its trade? If someone where to improve the IC defenses and you almost have to put in some type port.

If nothing else, I think I'd like to see some scripting that could effectively control a five-man squad (four troopies and a Sergeant) and keep them in some kind of disciplined formation while patrolling or attacking, rather than just running willy-nilly as they are prone to do in Oblivion's engine.

This would definately help the Legion's image, IMO.

A simple skirmish-line, or a phalanx wedge that could be used to protect a Battlemage behind it... is that too much to ask for?

With the pathing issues in Oblivion..probably. <smile>

THe Hammerfell mod has these wooden watchtowers that like 2 amazons are always up and they come running down when there is a monster. Wonder why there arent things like that scattered about...and for fires...surely all those trees...

and how come if its a city,theres no women plying their'wares'

Major General Joseph "Fighting Joe" Hooker would be proud.
All gave some,
Some gave all.
(And some gave some to those who gave all for just a few dollars.)

Don't forget that this is all one empire, morrowind, cyrodiil, etc etc. They don't need to defend from eachother, so if anything There should be defences all over the ports, but I'm not sure about the borders. I agree with the whole making the guards image seem a bit better, they do look a bit sloppy, don't they? At the moment, I'm currently working on an overhaul mod with a few freinds that basically changes the way of life for thieves and assassins, and all these ideas of great forts and well equipped armouries seem like a good idea to add to this. May I borrow some of these ideas?

use any of my ideas you want..no charge either!

That has bothered me since I started playing Oblivion. It's not just the soldiers but the animals as well. Where are the packs of wolves? I have been trying some scripts that would allow an animal to follow another but at my current level of understanding, I've had no luck. I believe it would take a new type of AI package and I have no idea how to even start it.

Har, bit late to post this... I gotta learn to keep better track of threads I'm interested in.

Anyway, in response to Dez's post on formations, she's right and wrong. Depending on the markup of the army/culture there were a few different formations. But one of the most common European formation was something along the lines of:

Archers in the front, followed by Pikemen (to stop oncomming calvary). When the enemy Calvary got too close the archers would instantly fall back and the pikemen would shift into what's called a 'grounding' position. Grounded was setting the butt of the pike against the ground and planting one foot on the pike's butt to help stabalize it. Most often pikes were actually built with holes so they would BREAK on impact, to help prevent injury to the Pikeman. Followed by the pikeman where the footsoldiers carrying swords/shields and whatnot. Calvary were actually most commonly left on the flanks though occasionally some WERE placed near the middle. The archers through all of this had fallen further back in the formation (now at this point they're usually behind both pikemen AND foot soldiers) raining hell upon enemy soldiers. Also, depending on the general there were three common ways to defeat oncoming calvary (again, based mainly on the make up of the army). These were: Let archers fire like crazy at the onrush if there were a lack of Pikemen, use the method I mentioned above with Pikemen, or meet their calvary with your own calvary.


Then again, once the two armies met everything pretty much crumbled and the battlefield became a hell-hole of mixed units and clumps.

Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black haired, sullen eyed

I look into my heart and find Cimmeria, land of shadow and darkness.

Oblivion seems to attract fans of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs, but why wouldn't Conan and Tarzan feel at home in Cyrodiil?

please by all means use any of these ideas, but only if you make a rank of Field Marshall...

They all might be apart of one nation/ empire, but you need to check on who might be crossing. The high mountain passes you need something there, fort would be one part of that maybe inn and small market...Now on the issue of the thieves guild and dark brotherhood, I think you should have choice to join or crush them. I am using Giskard Legion mod, I love it... wish you could do a little undercover work and put a stop to both guilds.

Units: I think you need very specialty unit made up from the most Races of the Empire. For example Nords and Orcs would be your specialist heavy assault troops. They more likely to crushing Morrowind if they had up raising, and putting the population to sword. Now Imperial and Redgaurds a little more diplomatic, would be occupying type with in reason. Nordic occupation would be much like Germanic Kingdoms. Anglo-Saxon, occupation of Britain and the Viking Invasion...

Maybe since Tamriel isn't Earth then we could get away with saying that they never developed battle formations like we did. That'd help us with the whole formation scripting (which would run into problems with the pathgrids and all) and it would also explain why the Battle of Bruma looked so disorganized!

Yes, but surely they have a base level of intelligence that tells them not to mosh the enemy, and that archers and mages should stay back, and that things work better when they are organised. These aren't barbarians we're talking about.

Yes it is all one empire but not always a willing one....and it seems that differnt races/nations often had their own agendas. Look at the Roman Empire...their legions were as spiffy as they come.

The MMM mod will give you plenty of animals in packs,as they should be, also adds more different creatures and humanoid enimy's too.

military formations would I think be pretty much the same even in a fantasy world. Basic attack and defense always came from trial and error.You don't become an empire without breaking a few eggs,and having your some brains scrambled either.

thats really getting to deep, If we want to do that lets change or mod out MTW 2 to become that. Really Tamriel/ oblivion was not set up for that so lets keep it simple and focus on the image that you might have in the game with armor, some what game play and building. Thing we know can be down rather well...I know there are plenty of LOTR mods for MTW, much could be done with that. Then you really could have battle of bruma, I like the idea dont get me wrong here. Just the limitation of the game we are dealing with.

From the player point of view, how could we improve the image? I like the idea of being able to crush the law breaking guilds, to be come more than just citizen of the empire. Come from nothing and become the duke or counts I love that. Become the Field Marshall of the army and commander of mighty citadel that just makes my day. Giskard elder council, really has the best ranking system I have seen in games. Just that as base to improve the legion even more. Duke of Colovia, Field Marshall then you could become the new emperor when you reach this rank of Field Marshall you now bring the hammer against the Dark brotherhood and the thieves guild.
thieves guild
become this Field Marshall rank and personally take over the investigation from lex on the matter of the thieves guild. lets make where you can still do all the quest even the last quest.. After the gray fox denounces his life of crime as the Field Marshall you now have choice for good or bad. Choice 1 you keep his secret quite this become gray fox yourself. Choice 2 after he denounces , he becomes count of Anvil again. You charge him Treason against the empire, execute him right there on the spot, then you go about hunting down the thieves guild. Tamriel security service your iron fist, your hammer...use it against the elder Council itself, you do want to become emperor?
DB
Avenging murder Phillida....I felt it was a little left out that the legion didnt make a point to crush DB after that. You kill Phillida, that stop any raising up throw the ranks you have betrayed the empire that action. still use like the thieves guild you can do all quest up until the Phillida murder then it all your choice. Legion hinds Phillida and his duty isnt done, you have to take his finger for greater glory of the empire. You get the trust of Lachance and the DB, Purification good thing for empire, all the rest leading up to end quest and after you save the night mother you become the speaker. You just do not talk here any longer, and kill off the rest of the brotherhood.. ( there is really way to completely break them but damage them to a point where it would be hard to function)


Field Marshall rank
allow you have some control of the new fort system
the patrols over tamriel
military duties in other provinces
Tamriel SS to spy on the elder council, cloud ruler temple ect
get the naval shipyard producing war ships
maybe morwind invasion, or something.... fun a bit hard quest

What may be an easier yet fun start is to have maybe a legion BlackOps corp thing. Like the DB quest where you and maybe 1 or 2 other special legion blackops members assasinate those the Empire deems dangerous. Or goes into places where a huge battle would not be practicle?
Like DB for those who want to be the good guys?

You mean the DB are bad guys? but they're my favorites...well at least up until I kill them all.

I like that idea lisnpuppy "Tamriel dark opps" I think the main idea of this thread is to make the imperial legion look better and for that the basic need it to give them more of a presence in Cyrodill. More forts or rebuilt forts should be at the top of the list but what type of architecture should be used?

Dang! Now I want to play Tamriel Dark Opps

So, by this, you mean a medieval SAS type thing?

Good idea! You have a group of say 4 guys and you.
Perhaps going through some SAS style training facility to join. That would be cool. Maybe adding some proper spying, not just asassination and theivery. Proper espionage in courts and stuff.
It would be best to create a new realm that the Empire is invading.

Wasper, have you heard about my mod idea? I'm trying tomake another overhaul mod that almost completely changes thievery and assassination, and this could come into it. I was also thinking of making a new thieves guild that ran on SAS based tactics, as the thieves guild to me seems rather sloppy. I mean, how do you get an invitation to the thieves guild? you get CAUGHT stealing, and not only that, you have to get imprisooned for it! That's a load of balls! Why would any half decent guild of thieves want people who get caught to join?

Raise the disposition of a beggar to 70 and they will tell you to join and you don't have to go to jail

I know about that, but seriously, it's just the fact that it's there is what's stupid.

I still say blackops...and it could be a topic people discuss...i mean when we talk about elite military...that is it..Seals, Rangers, BlackOps, etc. It is a point of pride...and having masses of soldiers in phalanx is really too much for oblivion pathing I think. And you'd have to do miracle AI stuff to get them to FOCUS LIKE A LASER...

ALlo instead of full forts..incorperate the watchtower thing but make it a small forttower only...with like 2 or 3 legion officers. And I think plate mail is stupid for legion soldiers...but that is just me.

I'd play a BlackOps quest/faction thingy. It would be fun..I love the DarkBrotherhood but for those that RPG it sometimes you have to be a good guy.

Giskgard's mod lets you do alot more in the legion also....but it really doesnt change their presence.

Jeez this thread moves WAY too fast for me to keep up with even though I love it. As for my little Tamriel is not Earth post, I know how people felt about that and never really thought it'd be taken seriously. It was more of a "Hey guys, let's take the lazy way out instead of being creative!" kind of joke post.

not really what I was going for...

We all can agree that Oblivion doesnt have the means for large battles. I was trying to point out, that MTW 2, or some type of game that has the feel. Take the core game and make something that can be related to The elder scroll that could support the units and have the battle element. Then you could be the legion and see them on the battle field, which is unrelated to the Elder Scroll games.... Just mod for Sega medieval total war Legion against the nords, orcs what have you.... I play that, just find out the all the ideas that could be....


Lis hit the nail on the head... it is nothing more than to have that choice... not the 4 man unit.. just based down to the player Suicide mission type thing 1 person in 1 person out....Your the only one with the skill to profrom this mission.
It would be the player him or her going about those 2 guilds once they get the rank or title of field Marshall. That would give the player the choice to be good or bad.... I would just feel in that gap, where the next person to get Philldia rank fines his finger. Would that make you, just to hunt down the DB..... goes back to my post about this issue...


lol the James Bond element... you could see NPC some helping along the way. SAS yeah maybe but I was really going for Gestapo and the Reich Security Service Legion does not really know how the deal with them... All they know it is for great glory of the empire to work with them...

I agree, small outposts scattered about with legion foresters instead of the heavy armored guards unless someone wanted to create a new set of armors. I like the look of the foresters. So what ideas do you have on the storyline for the BlackOps mod linspuppy? I wouldn't mind putting in a few outposts and helping out with this. I think it's one of the best ideas that I've heard in a while. If no one else is interested then I'll have to pass on it myself because I am very busy with my other mods at the moment.

heavy plate in a forest would be a disaster. boiled leather,chain and scale mail would be the correct choices

We'd need snipers for this one. Imagine you're sneaking up to one of the outposts when you are suddenly hit by an arrow, you search the treetops while running for cover and find an archer hidden among the branches. The blackops player would definitely need stealth and cunning to survive.

My fault I got off topic....

but you are right exanimis architecture.... I think Northern European feel would be a good choice for legion.. They remind me more and more of Holy Roman Empire.... Or that Red brick of the Teutonic Order...just to note on the Architecture

That would be great for a main base but for the outposts where there would be two or three soldiers, I'm thinking more like THIS

I have some thoughts on the BlackOps type thing..I would need to get my thoughts together.
I have only limited modding talents but I write well, can retexture, etc. It would be fun to get a group together to work on something like this.

How about this..

The player is contacted by the Imperial Legion

Your task is to visit each outpost (a dozen or so) and investigate each of the guards at that post

some of the guards were involved with the mythic dawn and were part of the plot to kill Uriel Septim and his sons

You must find evidence implicating the proper suspects and take the appropriate action

just a quickly slapped together storyline but I think it's a good start. Allow the option of making a true or false report and letting the suspect go or killing him/her

How about we break this into the different branches of the Imperial military? They would all be listed under "Legion" but from there we have the Army (foot soldiers), Navy (ships), Coast Guard (ships, but just the coast), Foresters (wilderness), Cavalry (horses), Black Ops (spy stuff), Special Forces (extreme fighting) and the Watch (military police).

THE ARMY
Basic foot soldiers or archers that make up the bulk of the Legion. When there are battles to be fought, these men are usually the first to arms. They usually travel in squads of 5 to 10 and are seen in forts and outposts across the lands.

I would say most squads would consist of: a captain, an archer, and either three swordsmen or two swordsmen and a battlemage.

For player missions, probably starting out as a simple grunt with standard issue sword or bow and training to fight in small scale battles with their squad.


THE NAVY
They are the ones who brave the high seas, battling enemy navies, transporting troops, escorting diplomats or traders and taking down piracy and other illegal sea operations.

For the player, I think I saw out there a mod that you can captain a ship and tell it where to go. Perhaps something similar could happen and you start as a sailor doing tasks for the captain of your ship and eventually become captain of your own ship.


THE COAST GUARD
Like the real life version, they are restricted to protecting the borders of the empire's heart. Most likely missions would involve defending coastal towns from attackers or investigating smuggling operations.


FORESTERS
Soldier rangers who protect the wilds and villages in-between the major cities.


CAVALRY
The guys you see riding around on horses. Perhaps they could have ranks so the player can eventually become a mounted knight or vassal.


BLACK OPS
A branch that technically "doesn't exist", they are the eyes and ears of the operations. The stealth based agents steal documents, make bad people go away and learn the weaknesses of the enemy.


SPECIAL FORCES
The best of the best of the best (MIB reference). Like the United Stats Marine Corps or the Navy SEALS these guys are considered "insane" by the other soldiers because they are sent on the most extreme missions that can only be accomplished by the most hardened of warriors.


THE WATCH
I can see these guys being a mix between guards/militia/police. In olden times there was not a distinction between police and military, so these guys would handle taking down gangs, protecting the town from internal threats and keeping an eye out for potential danger outside the walls.

Be careful about what you start with idle chatter...
Just a couple-hundred years ago, a few discontented stoners got together to have a few beers and gripe about their government raising the luxury tax on tea... one of them spouts out "Hey... what if we dressed up like indians..." and you know what happened after, right? (lol)
Never underestimate the power of boredom or inebriation.