I'd like to address this issue of players not being able to cheat in MeMod. From what I have read in Admin posts, Any attemp to use the console to modify your character's stats, inventory, surrounding or location, would result in an automatic death. I would like to express that I think it is rather hipocritical move on the mod makers part.
If you think about it, computer games and computer game mods are made for one sole purpose, to be as enjoyable as possible to the character. This move of taking away the ability to "cheat" is deliberate removal of an element of the game that for some people, makes there game more enjoyable.

I, personally do not like to "Uber" my character but I do find console cheats very useful in enhancing my game experience (especially after I have completed most of the game), A few extra stats here, or an unlocked door here can be what I need to allow me to continue on with a quest. SOmetimes I even lower my Stats when I find that I am not enjoying gameplay as much as I would with more challenge. Consider if you will players who have already completed the main quest for MeMod, would it be so wrong for them to try to enhance they're gameplay.

Or say for instance a modder is creating his own mod for Middle Earth and he want to test it out in game quickly and easily. In cases such as this the additem and centeroncell mod can be very useful.

All I am saying is that Console use should not be always viewed as "wrong". Maybe it could be arranged that certain, uber, console commands are not available( such as filljournal, or fillmap) or that the amount your stats\gold ect.. go up is regulated, or mabye that certain items cannot be attained through cheating. I'm not sure how difficult that would be but it would certainly better than no console at all

I've said my piece.

I can understand your point in relation to modders having to use them for testing and soforth, but i'm assuming (so obviously, no garantee(sp?)) that the team will sort something out in the release to get around this problem.

As for having to remove a feature that increases the game's difficulty to be beneficial for the game, well i'm not sure i'm with you on that. I used to be a crontic cheater in the Age of... games, since i found the resource management side of the game very difficult, dare i say tedious. But with the latest release i refused to cheat (mainly, because i couldn't find the cheats on any websites ) and found it much more enjoyable, since i was taking what i found hard and developing my style of play, if you like, my character, around that feature. If you simply remove an element from the game, then you lose part of it, and i think that is one of the key reasons cheats are being wiped.

The MEMOD team want the players, ie the community at large, to experience their creation to its fullest level, with all the features and gameplay quirks they have spent so much time in perfecting. For someone to come in, play it for an hour and say "I don't like the hunger aspect of the game" and just remove it, would insult me if i were a modder.

This is only my opinion of course, and i do see where you are coming from. Its just that since my "awakening" i haven't cheated in a single game and, while it means i haven't yet completed some of them, i've certainly enjoyed them more.

I can definitely see your point, but as I said before, I only use cheats to enhance my gameplay in small details, nothing huge and uber, and I would never dream of completely removing something like hunger and thirst that the makers are going to be putting into the mod. I simply find that "cheats" can be helpful in getting your game back on track. Mabye if they offered a version with and a version without the console, or as I said before remove some console commands that shouldn't be used in MeMod.

I've heard you would be punished by cheating but how about the FIXME option, is it still in it or did you guys find another solution?

I'm not sure but from what I heard it sounds like you just can't open the console. I'm not sure though

I am something of a fan of the Final Fantasy series of games. As far as “cheating” goes, I would always play through the “main” quest with no cheats at all. For me, it helped to create a sense of really “being there”. After I had completed the game (FF is, of course, much more linear in game play than is Morrowind, with a definite beginning and definite end*), I would usually then break out the Game Shark or Action Replay and go overkill on the stats. Then I would go through, performing all the “side quests” that I wanted to do (killing Ruby and Emerald Weapon, etc.), find all the hidden and secret items and quests, and so on.

The way it is, Morrowind cheats on your side: In reality, most, if not all of you would go down with a single swing of a sword if you were wearing “common” clothing. However, as you have said before, after completing the main quest, I would like to go through the game again, starting off far better than I otherwise would. Especially, if as my brother says, certain things are going to be time dependent. In order to complete all the side quests, having to either constantly save at certain time waypoints, or go through the tedium of starting over again and again, could lead to a loss of interest in the overall game.

*(The first time I beat the Tribunal quest, I actually did not know I had completed the “main” quest for it. It was finally after I asked my brother what the main Tribunal quest was that I realized “Oh! I did that already. What do you know?”)

What's the FIXME function?

As i said before, i can see your point Quid, and there have been a load of threads on these forums about cheating and where to draw the line, and i'm sure the team have taken that into consideration. I guess that we'll just have to live with the fact that cheating - in any form, big or small - isn't going to be allowed, unless of course we hear otherwise from the team.

The console prompt can be brought up. Certain "of standard use" functions such as "fixme" will remain available for use.

The purpose of the Middle-Earth Mod for Morrowind is *NOT* for the enjoyment and entertainment of the masses of movie-Tolkien-fans and "action" gamers.

The purpose of the Middle-Earth Mod for Morrowind is to provide those FEW "purist" gamers and long-time Tolkien purists with a means to realistically enter into Tolkien's world and interact with the events, beings, cultures, (etc) that can be found within it. It is made as a Tribute to Tolkien, and thus anything that allows such foolishness and unrealistic aspects to be used will be eliminated.

Game designers that hard-code a "no cheats" system find that individuals that play their games tend to enjoy their levels of success more than if they'd had the option to use a cheat.

This is another reason to eliminate cheats.

This decision was made almost 2 years ago, and we will not deviate from it.

-- D

So I asked for FIXME, it is not a cheat it is able to help people stuck inside unrealistic places (and ofcourse to get through doors for players wich do not like to wait, but don't let them spoil this possibility), though I do think it to be nice of you to make such tribute to Tolkien and I would only use this to do some research in Middle-Earth and maybe a bit of fun ofcourse.

We've rigged "fixme" so that it cannot move you "through" closed doorways.

-- D

WHOO, THAT SOUNDS GREAT, but how did you do that? Well sounds wonderfull anyways.

I'm agree with the No-Cheats decision. I hate cheats, also if they are uselful to me like in a strategy game where I use the add resources cheats to see all the units, all the posibilities, etc.

mm, it's TCL a cheat? I needed it every time I've managed to jump over the ropes that in morroind are in the sides of the "streets" (I cant remember the correct name)

I have stated my feelings on this topic before and i will do it again. If you want complete realism without altering the storyline at all, than you wouldn't be there at all! The simple fact that you are there alters the universe that tolkien created. After limiting how strong a character can become and stopping the ability to mess with 'major characters', you have removed TONS of realism by stopping gamers from discovering the consequences of their actions. After taking these things out of the NORMAL game you have done enough, but removing CHEATS is worse. All games almost DOUBLE thier replay value with cheats. I love memod, and this is the only thing that I disagree on with the team.

Ill state my opinion to you being as nice as possible...


MEMod is being created as a tribute to Tolkien. Daerk could give a hoot if some people thought it was bad because you couldnt cheat. As to not alter the timeline ALREADY given by Tolkien you cannot become uber or history altering, meaning you cannot become a king of Rohan or Gondor lets say... Also if MEMod had cheats this would be easier to get uber and ruin Middle Earth as us fans know and love it. For example-

additem Somereallyraresword 1

With that you could have a unique sword only a king would have from it being passed down frm his ancestors, that would make no sence for the player to have.
And before you say that if the player wanted to do that to run his game then he can, were telling you its not gonna happen EVER...

Agreed with all Suzerain has said.

Cheating does not increase the replay value, as I used to be a prolific cheater myself...it takes the fun out playing any game (unless it be agonizingly hard ) and the game looses something in the process when you type in 'TGM' in the console. Honestly, I don't know where you get your rationalization stating that it increases the replay value, more like makes it a 'play once, and let it collect dust in my desk' value.

I do not think that it will be enough to just make us commoners in the mod, it would be still possible to kill major characters in the game and with this alter the timeline. Let me give you an example.

If somethings gets through your heart (arrow, sword, knife etc.) you are dead. When you get beheaded, you are dead. If you eat something with deadly poison in it, you are dead. Even when you are a beginner in fighting and your opponent is a champion, there is still a chance that you win (even when it is very low). Or what is this thing with the arrow shot without aiming? I'm somewhere in a battle, I shoot an arrow without even aiming and accidentally hit the king right in his chest, he is dead. Ooopps. Or perhaps it wasn't accidentally, in the heat of a battle, nobody is really looking, when you are firing an arrow right at the king. Or perhaps I am a thief and somehow I get past the guards and then I can stab the king to death from behind. Or there is a great cortege, the king is riding with his riders, the crowd is cheering the streets. A perfect place for an assassination. Perhaps I would even get away with it.

These are just all possibilities how I could alter the timeline. Even the mightiest person in this world may just have bad luck or doesn't look behind and can get killed. What do you do to prevent such things from happening?

now, I've got to agree. the accidental arrow, the sneaky assasination... the plain bad luck that meant you happened to lean against the trigger on the trebuchet that the king was inspecting at the time...

but, let's put it this way. the King/Steward of gondor. he's not likely to be parading down the streets in an Archduke Ferdinand style... not least becasue with the Morrowind engine, it'll suck. can you imagine a crowd of 5,000 waving and cheering.

iiiiittttt...ss tthhhhheeeeee kiiiiiiinnnnngggg *watches the cortege crawl past at 1 frame/second*

so, no, the assasination in the crowd is unlikely to take place in the Mod for Morrowind solely because of the technical limitations of the game engine meaning that it would be almost impossible to implement.


but, yes, in theory, each other option is a plusible way of taking the timeline in a different direction to what happened. however, the more important point is, will such an event be required for the game's plotline? The answer is no. If the year's 2941, you're not going to be given a quest to go to the shire and give a 50-year old hobbit in Bag End an apple pie with arsenic in it. If you do decide to try such things in-game, then yes, It may take place that you murder Bilbo.

However, I think it's fair to say that in the interests of continuity, we are ensuring that "signature" NPCs have a limited immortality. perhaps they are critically wounded - the steward of gondor is almost killed by an attempt on his life, but will recover. Elrond narrowly escapes with his life, Bilbo is away and it's someone else... or something. It's about maintianing the consitency of Tolkien's literary creation against the freedom of the player character to act as they wish. I do think it's perfectly plausible for a player to try to become the person who undermines gondor, and so on. However, I equally hope that the majority of players will want to be those who wish to explore the world of Middle-Earth, not destroy it in some orc-minded fashion.

if we wanted to undermine tolkien's world, we'd not be struggling to recreate it with such fine detail, accross a vast scale. The mod is a homage and a tribute to his efforts, not simply a place to wreck. If players want to wreck it, then that's their perogative. but it's exactly the same as deciding to kill a major NPC in morrowind. if it wrecks the game for you, do you consider it a bonus? there's only so much pathing and branching of scripts possible, and in many ways, we cannot allow for the possiblities of player action.

as a certain veteran designer once said to me "there is no such thing as a foolproof plot, because the fools are so ingenious"

I'll admit, one thing I'm likely to do is, with a uber-hard character, at some point, I'll see how many of the npcs I can defeat, just because it'd be interesting to try as a one-off experiment. But equally, I'm not going to want to say "let's kill the king, that'll screw up the timeline" in the whole game. The target audience for the Middle-Earth Mod for morrowind are, likewise, the players with a similar wish to explore Tolkien's world, not wreck it. I hope out target demographic are not outnumbered by the narrow-minded who take pleasure in wrecking a literary genius' work.

Now, in a "evil" supplement... that may be different. But we still want to be within the context of the history even in that. There are many opportunities for a plotline there that allows a player to wreck middle earth as the forces of Sauron are on the ascendant. Imagine beng a captain in the sack of Minias Ithil, or the founding of Dol Guldur, forcing the elves into retreat... Imagine being one of the Black Numenorean Corsairs, as you Pillage Pelargir, or being the leader of a goblin raiding party coming down from the north to plunder the shire in the Cold Winter. all possible... and all plausible within the Timeline.

It is almost impossible to answer your question and points, Darnoc. but I hope that this has at least given a little more light on the reasoning behind our approach.

Suzerain

The only game I can think of that I liked cheating was Contra for my NES. I found it waaaaaaaaay too hard to even play starting with three lives... Even though it got me trough a lot of things it was still fun. See sometimes cheating just helps, not ruins. But I have to agree on the non-cheatingness for MEMod.

Try Jurasic Park for the SNES

A full day playing to find that it has a bug that did not let me finish the game
:_(_ __

Thats odd, I found it easy....i beat it with one live no continues. Meh i did have to play it for about a month before i got the perfect skills...

Back on topic...


The consule shouldn't be locked up or set as devoid of use for any reason except if one player is trying to 'own' everyone else, for instance if you went through and explored found a neat potion and decided to drink it, only to find out later you'll need that for a main quest. The only thing left to do is consult the consule (poor X-box players). The consule is there mainly for people who are well lets face it stupid players (not in offense of anyone), those of us who screw up need it. Therefor it should be allowed, but enforce control over people who abuse this to 'cheat' and make it less fun for others. I had one experience where i got stuck permanently walking in levetation. I had to go at the same speed as everyone else, I also had to go back to my last save which was pretty far back and that was really bad. The consule comes with its own downsides so unlock it and just keep it under watch. If it becomes over used then lock it again.

I agree. I think that cheating will just make it too easy and take away the realism of tolkien's world.


But wouldnt it be great to take down all the Nazgul in a matter of seconds.... lol

ALRIGHT I seem to be greatly outnumbered and I feel that you have made many good points. I apologize for all that I have offended and trust the ability of the teamsters to make this the best damn lord of the rings mod (and later game) out there.
The only reason I said what I said is because I always thought it would be cool to just see what would happen if... I'm not going to inumerate the things I have dreamed about doing. I WAS concerned that it wouldn't be that dynamic and everything big (like major battles) would be obvious and predictable. However, the way you describe it makes me think that it will be SOOOOOOOOO dynamic that I will never get tired of discovering new things in middle-earth. Now I'm even more pumped about this mod than I ever was before

I hate Cheats. One thing is if you get bored and thinking of Uninstall Morrowind becouse of a quest, but no cheat for me.. I will try to especially in memod not use
the console.

ummm... I think there is no way you could convince D into changing his mind on the subject so just let this die and move to the third page...

Protocols will also be insituted that will prevent other forms of more evasive hacking, such as memory editing.

We are really going out of your way to do all of this. Honest.

don't worry. be happy. drive happy now..

I disagree with the non-cheating thing as well. It's usefull in certain situations when you have no other option(i seem to have a thing for falling into deep holes etc that i can't get out of unless i temporarily increase my acrobatics).
The time limit is a good idea, but as has been said before, having to start a brand new game if you missed something is going to frustrate people fast and lose interest(i know i would, patience isn't one of my virtues).

I think it's just a player's option, you either can cheat, or you can't. Forcing somebody into something is reducing their options.

See the concept of "Contra" as a game, and then compare that will all Suze has said about MEMod in this same thread. You won't even have to go and read the MEMod guide for that.

The same applies to the cheating stuff. Cheating in MEMod equals ruining it. No way.

EDIT: and I know you're against cheating in MEMod, in case you think I don't