I mean, don't get me wrong I do very much enjoy my good characters. But I have a dark side I like to indulge. I remember in Morrowind for example, with some of the mods for vampires like Vampire Embrace, which seemed to be derived from Vampire The Masquerade it was a joy to be bad. There were also quite a few more evil oriented quests modders made. With Oblivion lately it seems to be getting a little better, but I really need something more for my evil characters. My first character in this game was a Bosmer Ranger, then I noticed some interesting vampire mods, and decided to try evil.

So I joined the Dark Brotherhood, became a vampire, and Listener. Then some Necromancy mods came out. One in particular comes to mind where you could harvest dead bodies, and use body parts and black soul gems filled with souls to create undead minions. But I found myself kind of stuck with my evil Vamperic Necromancer, because while she had a nice little abode to suit her, the status of Listener, and the ability to make undead minions... There was nothing for her to do with her abilities. No quests I could see her conceivably taking. Oblivion in general seems to be very much oriented towards good characters, and even most quest mods seem to be the same. Which is understandable, but I kind of stopped playing her for a long, long time. I mean I enjoyed my two major good characters who saved the world plenty. But I always wanted to go back to my evil little Mystic Elf. But there is not much she would do. She isn't the slightest bit altruistic, and wouldn't help someone without a major price.

I did try to keep some life in her from an RP perspective by having her rise in the ranks of The Mages guild, while keeping her secrets from them. She did it for political leverage and to eliminate the competition Mannimarco posed to her. Of course in my own mind I had to pretend things happened in a manner, in which they do not in game. Like she killed Traven. I would also in my mind have her do minor quests scattered about the game, and help people for the price of their soul with which to fill one of her black soul gems. So I squeezed as much as I could out of her, but then nothing more... She took down the competition made a small undead army, but what to do with it? Attack a city for no particular reason? No... That would just be a mindless killing spree. You can do that with any character.

Basically I want some purpose, and meaning for my evil character. Anyone else share this sentiment?

Evil characters have no need for love. They need something sharp and a couple of victims.

Now, if a character is actually evil, then there's no better reason to attack a city than no reason at all, besides having fun, of course. If the character has a purpose he becomes less evil. So, what you mean is closer to selfish or dark or whatever. Evil doesn't define this enough, though I think most people are used to that way.

I always thought being 100% selfish made one evil, with "evil just because" being entirely optional. Adds some nice symmetry too.

Good: Helping others without regard for yourself.
Neutral: Helping yourself with regard for others, and helping others with regard for yourself.
Evil: Helping yourself without regard for others.

Well, everyone is a little selfish. But in character consepts in such case while the character would be both evil and selfish, it's the selfish property what would define the character, and it would be selfish that caused evil, not reverse.

Just some thoughts:

Real societies can only function because people are good. That is, they respect life and property, as well as certain other codes. So a game world that has any kind of civilization is going to have to be filled with basically good people. Alternatively, you could say that we're all evil, but that society makes it more expensive to acquire our wants through evil means than through good. Either way, realism demands that goodness be general.

But what do you mean by evil? If it's just doing things that benefit you without regard for others, the thieves' guild works nicely. There's a mod that adds independent fences as well, so all that's needed is some added heist quests, and you're basically working for yourself. I think there's a mod where you can join the Blackwood company, which would be a similar sort of thing. (TG has a bit of a Robin Hood tone, come to think of it.)

If evil means killing good people then you have a practical problem. It's no fun to play in a world where all the quest characters are dead. But its also kinda boring to know that no matter how many times you kill Jensine, she'll rise again after three days.

JRRT seems to have defined evil as the desire to dominate others. In that sense, a quest for the imperial throne would be the ultimate evil. Thus, killing troopers and council members might be a good deed, and killing rebel marauders and necromancers an evil deed. In that scenario, the practical problem comes with issuing commands, which is the consummation of your evil.

I always end up playing a mixture of good and evil in all my characters.

This is what I'm finding out/dealing with right now. I had no idea the depth and range of my character even though I loved her from the start. What's interesting to me is that while she's growing and changing, she's also staying true to who she is, the whole concept of her, from her starsign to the attributes I chose for her to exceed in, do not simply define her, they only formed the basis of a personality. Love, anger, pain, these are making her go through changes.

One day as she walked the path outside Imperial City she realized that it wasn't that long ago she had emerged from the sewers with nothing but the clothes on her back, now she can afford anything her heart desires, and money is such a non-object that she doesn't even think about it. There came a point when making Septims was no longer "for the money", but more the thrill of the conquest. And yet her life, she felt, still had meaning, though it wasn't romantic, she loved one person more than any other and literally would have laid her own life down for him. You know, he was the only person in Cyradil who shared his deepest secrets and insecurities with her. Their lives were both completely changed and intertwined by one man's fate, after all. Losing him has really sent her into a tailspin. She really doesn't care about anything anymore. I'm not sure where she's going. She actually seems to be drinking a lot, (like stealing a beer I never even saw her take, and filling the house in Skingrad with groceries and wine "for Ehja".

Ok, so here's something she's been doing lately, besides checking out the bars, she's a master at security, and lately she's been just sneaking into people's houses and watching them, nosing through their belongings out of boredom or curiosity, I guess. Her fame is at 100 so she likes to enchant herself with chameleon just to get a break. She hasn't had any real dealings with vampires yet, but I know they're looking for her, just by chance I lost two different save games after she was approached by some untrustworthy characters. She hates when she can't read their faces, especially because personality is one of her own greatest attributes. A lot of times when people faun over her, she's just like "whateva" blah blah blah, thinking I didn't do anything, the real hero is dead. Who comes up with these ridiculous titles anyway?

Okay I want to avoid philosophical discussion on the concepts of good and evil as I will likely get carried away. I'm talking generically in a fantasy setting. I think LoginToDownload came rather close in what I mean. I mean sure I'd love to use my army to actually conquer cities. However since a full scale attack on any city will just lead to a lot of dead bodies and a bounty on my head with no actual rule over said city, why bother? I mean sure you can see me using the word evil and think homicidal maniac with no rhyme, reason, or rationality. But what about a more precise and cunning type of evil that aspires for power, and influence.

I want my evil-doers actions to actually impact aspects of the game, while I know there is a Mythic Dawn faction mod out there, the Mythic Dawn doesn't quite fit my tastes. The character in question here aspires to become a force just as fearsome as a Daedric Prince. A jailer of all souls on Tamerial, but that's setting my goals just a tad too high perhaps? So what about some politically motivated, malevolence... Of course throw in a dab of the macabre here and there, and aspire to rise in power in the existing power structure of The Empire, and then use your influence to bend, break, and subsequently corrupt it to your will? Something like that would be really fun! Of course if one day someone makes a mod where you can actually conquer Cyrodiil its self by waging war on the Empire it'll put a big smile on my face. Then again in the interest of having things run smoothly such a character, would likely try to attain their means of power politically through the existing structure before waging war. Or even set up her enemies, who don't even realize they are her enemies before striking. Making them vulnerable, catching them off guard. Also with that whole conquer The Empire concept said, I'm not saying kill all NPC's just because you can. No you want to take out the guards, and rulers of certain cities, then pretty much enslave the inhabitants of said city by creating your own twisted order.

I guess for the character in question, she has megalomaniac issues, and also aspires to become a force so powerful and terrible the forces of Oblivion would think twice about invading if she were running the show. But again I know I'm aiming too high here, and I have come to accept such a character may never really work out given the way the game is. So Blackwood Company? That could work for a cold blooded assassin type of character perhaps? Kill people, make money, no questions asked so long as you're payed. I never finished The Fighters Guild questline but I know those guys are bad news.

I have heard Shivering Isles is a bit less goody goody oriented? Is that true? If so it may give my baddy something to do.

I honestly don't think that ANY character morality was really "loved" in Oblivion. If you think about it, Character morality doesn't do anything ecept make a few NPS go " ohhh I 've heard of you...." It is the actions of the player themselves that change anything if you can call it "change". No, change is implying that something is now different, to strong of a word.

Sadly as I said before morality in Oblivion was shunned almost completely. You can't change the outcome of the Main quest or the guild quests just because you killed him or killed her. The greatest effect your decisions have is do i take the money and lie about it, or do i return it?"

I'm sure this can make all the difference to all you Hardcore PR people, but I myself am left with a sense that none of my actions REALLY count. I dunno, mabey I'm just crazy.

And don't sling that "phillisophical" crap at me, its just a GAME!

-out

Seems to me, once you include the Daedric quests, there's plenty of evil to go around... Mage's and Fighter's Guild stuff is never particularly "good", basically boiling down to killing things for money, which only leaves goodness an advantage in a few miscellaneous quests scattered about that aren't worth one's time compared to dungeon delving in general.

What does infamy really do for a character in this game? I would use it as a measurement of how evil your character is, if people feared you and ran away from you when you approach them, instead of everyone trying to kill you because you've broken the law. I also think its pointless to attack a city and kill the inhabitants just see a city of dead people with respawning guards.
It would be cool if you did kill the selected count/countess so you could sit yourself on their throne and have the populace turned into your personnal slaves and army to attack other cities.

Fame and infamy suck for the purpose of determining how good or evil your character is. You get infamy for Thieves Guild - which doesn't include any malicious deeds and even has "save someone's life" things - and you get fame for Arena, really noble, killing people for others' fun, huh?

"Or even set up her enemies, who don't even realize they are her enemies before striking. Making them vulnerable, catching them off guard. Also with that whole conquer The Empire concept said, I'm not saying kill all NPC's just because you can. No you want to take out the guards, and rulers of certain cities, then pretty much enslave the inhabitants of said city by creating your own twisted order."


Becoming a member of the high council. Have debates on how to rule the empire, corrupt and persuade people to be on your side. And then break away, wage civil war, 1 guard against another. The rulers of each town, going against each other, fighting for the throne and the title of emperor. Skirmishing, stealing, fighting for land.

Indeed would be a great mod.... 1,000,000 kudos to whoever makes it.

I love the idea of an evil character loving nobody but you - so you at special. My character is like that. She kills everyone except her friends. .

I don't know if this is a good place for this story or not, but in our recent travels we happened onto a pretty unique staff -- "of Banishment" (see here) which at first seemed quite pointless. keeping in mind that my character has scrupulously avoided murder all the way through the game and has now completed all the thieves guild quests, all the mage guild quests and the main quest, as well as the knights of the nine quests, and maybe a third of the fighters guild quests, I guess that's about 80 percent of the game, right? so she still has not taken that step to murder. But she's pissed off at that dude who wanted the Chorrol heirloom, the fence that's always in the Oak and Crozier in Chorrol. in her goody bag, she's also been carrying around the Nocturnal's Gray Cowl which what's his name gave her.

So she puts on the gray cowl and shoots him with the staff of banishment -- and let me tell you all hell breaks loose! There were three Mythic Dawners (two came out of nowhere!) and they started shouting "For Lord Dagon" but they didn't attack my character at all but they were generally rioting, a guard immediately showed up of course and started slashing at me, but the Mythic Dawners went after him, the Propietess of the O & C got into the act and I just ran around generally trying to stay out of reach of the guard. I went full chamelion and removed the cowl, and the riot poured out into the streets. One of the mythic dawn members had a full set of Daedric armor and I have no idea who it was or where the armor came from, and he disappeared but after it was all said and done, a guard was dead, two mythic dawners were dead, the thief who lives "in sin", Glistel, in Chorrol was dead, and the Propietor of the Oak and Crozier was dead. I went back into the O&C and Fathis Ules was skulking around behind the bar looking scared and miserable. I felt bad so I resurrected Talasma. Everybody had keys to someone else's house on their corpses as well, except Talasma. Of course I helped myself to her O&C key before I resurrected her.

Wow. It was quite a show!

I agree, evil characters need more love! I mean, i always try to be evil, but it always goes in a loop.
I finish the main quest - which makes me good.
I join the new mythic dawn and become the master - which makes me evil.
I buy castles and reinforce them, any invasion coming from the Northlands or the southlands will hit my castles first - which makes me good.
I am a vampire and like to skin animals and make stuff out of them - which makes me evil.

A really annoying loop, I think it should be like in "KOTOR", when you even say something bad, you move to the dark side. When you help people and say good things, you progress in the light.

KOTOR - Knights Of The Old Republic

Neutrality, the grey area..I feel in the many characters, I have played as, and sides I have played..I realised that in the grey area, is more adventure and less bordom..good and evil are only separated by intent anyways..To good boredom, to evil equally so for me..
But the line between the two has infinite possibilities, and mods to explore them..We all need love admit it or not good evil or inbetween..In Morrowind it was possible someone is yet to make a Romance mod, that does not cares not which gender offers that love..Only Emma made such mods how I wish she would for Oblivion then good , evil, neutral all would get if , if they wanted a true partner, to share the world with.

Cheers mates

The fact is, the guilds including the thiefs guild are mainly neutral.
Being a vampyre or in the dark brotherhood makes you evil.
The main quest for good guys.
However the problem is that you cannot make a impact on the game:
*Wage civil wars
*Create a orginasation for undermining the empire
*Bankrupt people
*Etc............

This is what Oblivion lacks, a bigger view with more to do. I want to be able to build up a city, someting similar to what you did in Bloodmoon. I want to be able to exterminate citys and villages. The problem is the amout of power you lack, your following the 1-man army, unless you got the Scamp Staff(then you got 4 minions ).
I want more driving quest, harder decisions that will have a major impact on the world.

I agree on reading that fame gained from the Arena is a little backwards as I've read a few posts up as stated by Sarya, but I believe that the lore of Oblivion and the time period negates the concept of murder involved. You join the Arena knowing you have to kill to win, and that's seen as okay because it's a choice the contestants make.

Ya know, it would be cool to attach more quests to the deaths in the Arena, perhaps something involving someone seeking vengeance over one of their fallen loved ones in the Arena that your PC kills?

Anyway, evil characters are more limited in Oblivion, you have the Dark Brotherhood by stock. I know there are some evil quest mods - such as Servant of the Dawn and City of the Dead (perfect for the Necromancers). It's not totally miserable for an evil character. I personally prefer neutral, and I like doing the Dark Brotherhood's quests a lot, so I'll gladly do them along with all the good things. I'm sure more things for evil will come out over time and evil quest mods will pop up here and there in the constant flow of mods.

No, it doesn't. There's no evil when there's no conscious choice. And vampirism is not always a choice. And survival may be egoistic, but evil has nothing to do with it.

Seconded.

As an example:

Your character, let's say a good-aligned ranger who lives off the land and perhaps alone in the wild comes across a cave of vampires, and is afflicted with vampirism. They don't find a cure in time, and against their will become a vampire.

Arguably you could say they'd seek a cure, but it wouldn't be easy for them. With how Oblivion works and assuming such a character would refuse to feed off others, their affliction would grow worse and the sun would be too deadly for them. Travel would be limited, people would run in fear.

Vampirism can be just as much a tragedy as it is evil, but it's often wrongly associated with evil.

What kind of lame ranger takes more than three days to find/buy some mandrake? IIRC, it costs two gold at most Mages Guildhalls or Alchemy shops. And even then, if they were good-aligned, they could just head to a chapel. /nitpick.

Im with LoginToDownload on this one. it takes a matter of minutes to fast travel to the nearest town, pray at a chapel, and be done with it. The only conceivable way I can think of that someone can become a vampire against their will is if they dont notice the "youve been infected with poriferic hemophylia" (pardon my spelling). I personally am a vampire, but i made that choice on my own during the dark brotherhood questline. i chose to become one because the vampire skill perks matched my own major skills, not necsarily because i am evil. i have no problem with the moral aspects of feeding because i enjoy being out in the daytime and interacting with the other npcs, not because im a particularly despicable character.

Seconding (or thirding) LoginToDownload's comments, vampirism obviously IS a choice in Cyrodiil. I guess it could result from carelessness, which is what usually happens to me. Or you could have forfeited access to a cure by other past choices.
But even if you were locked up and turned into a vampire against your will, the evil is not in being a vampire--not in what you ARE. It's in what you DO. (Hasn't Hellboy taught you ANYTHING, people?)
At any rate, vampires don't have to kill (or at least, steal blood) in ES. So you could be a non-evil vampire, or even a good vampire. And in theory, you could work out a deal with some friends to provide you blood. (When playing, you'd need a companion, and you'd kinda just have to assume they were OK with it. Seriously, I doubt your Adoring Fan would mind. He'd probably be delighted to have the Champion sucking his blood!) And then there's all those bandits--which opens another issue. I mean, properly you should really have to wait for them to attack you first. Then I guess you could turn invisible, run away, wait for them to fall asleep, and then come back and drain their blood. If you wanted to be strictly moral about it, that is.

Bear with me a moment as I have you all..You know this discussion could go around the twist so many times, till all our knickers are in a twist.. and still end up with no answer..that will satisfy anyone..Why because we are dealing with vastly different perspective in what it is called 'evil' and is called 'good'..There are no rights and wrongs for each perspective is ones own right..

I feel from what I read, even though this was a Q DO 'evil' or darker characters need more love is what I responded to since it was the subject matter..but the avoidance of that Q makes me ponder why..so lets fence aliitle friendly like Ok..just for the craic..

Until this endless debate on what makes evil and good..Is a vampire evil, was the count of Skingrad evil, was he not disgusted with the vile creatures as he called them that had sunk to animalistic behaviours and nothing more natures..

Even he as a vampire knew there was a difference..So vampirism in and by itself is not evil, even joining the DB in not 'evil' if one chooses it..one can Dl a mod and also skip the pufication another choice..

Think about it, when you kill Rufio, and (spoiler alerts)he says I have done nothing, and you say oh yes you have and he goes on, to say, I told her not to struggle..Then in my eyes the bugger deserved to die, it can be conjectured he obviously from his words, raped a womon..and killed her, in those times, justice was death, we cannot judge the actions, according to the rules of this world, but the ways of a world more based on older times..

Even the Dark mother who like the Dark Goddess is misunderstood, and called evil, yet is She or does she also have two sides, one that those who are 'evil' by choice, draw and call out of her, and one to pass judgement on those guilty of crimes, that the Empire would just pass by since corruption in high places, oft turns a blind eye..to protect themselves is why..

No justice, reigns, so you kill him, and avenge a womon who was violated and killed..Is it 'evil' or justice. Even if I accidentally kill someone ion battle, Lucien visits me, and I am not in the mood to go that direction, I simply refuse, or because I know what Rufio guilty of now on my mind,, I it do as a freebee and still don't go to the sanctuary.. Am I 'evil' no, for in my eyes, Rufios crime, is a death sentence..

Once here in Ireland and other countries, there were the Old Ones.. that were the ones that kept men in line, and would simply curse them, to keep justice alive as corruption took its seat in high places..with corrupt leaders of the ages..So they became justice, the dark Mothers work aye indeed, dark does not mean 'evil' until the burnings..Did that make them 'evil' in today's world I suppose so, in Oblivion's world is that line so clear anymore..

Choices, one acts like this game forces, one to be 'good', so they rebel and try to become all evil..The game forces nothing unless you submit to it, or just play your game..in the moment of where you are..

Deadric worship good or evil, some perhaps, some just mischievous, I say nothing is so black and white so to speak although I hate usuing those terms.. Grey areas all over if you look.. depending, for what of Azura..

Even Necromancy all 'evil' not necessarily so..Play the Origin of the Mages Guild mod by giskard…
A real eye opener to the grey areas, which you get to as Arch Mage change if you so wish, and redo the Mages Guild, from thee ground up, with the possibility of overturning his ruling on Necromancy and Vampiric guilds, and their place in Cyrodill. Now there's a power position worth pursuing..

So..since you all want to have this debate, think for a moment..'Good' and 'evil' based on today's real world term, since those that define that those terms are biased anyway usaully..unless we are talking real psycho-sociopathic stuff.. That is sick, but still do not count in this world of Oblvian.. There will always be, exceptions to the rule, who decides, power pure evil as a decision, are doomed to fail, aye its is a proven fact..in any world incl Oblivion..

In the eyes of the Imperial Empire, perhaps it is defined.. so since when has the empire of any world, been a valid judge of what is good and what is evil, right or wrong, usually based in prejudice usually biased relgious ideals..interwoven with political ideologies..

So on the premises, pure evil, pure good, dose not exist, unless one chooses just to never do anything from their darker moods and moments, or a darker charectors decides never to do a good deed, and just kill, wihtout conscience like the viler creatures, Janus stated himself that have returned to a pure animlistic nature with no conscience..

There is your answer if one has no conscience never does a good act, and cares for no one not even a companion, then and only then could one be considered truly evil and that is choice..The narrow minded view of Oh one is in the DB, they are evil..Is nonsense, for I have been and that was just a job, the rest of the time I helped people…So neutral is a more viable description for most people, who at times give into the darker sides, and sometimes their lighter sides, but does true 'evil' or true 'good' for that matter exists..for us as players..

Plain and simple vampires are not 'evil' by nature, unless they choose to have no conscience..

For those of you searching for pure evil, to conquer and defy all, and rule, as all evil empires have realised, that which is based on congest alone, usually at some point are doomed to fall..and fail..If you care nothing for the people who serve you, one day they will betray you..

For as the original Q asked do darker charectors need love..If not they are doomed to fail..that is the crux of this matter..

Once it was asked..is better to be feared, or repsected.. All true great rulers that have gained some wisdom will choose respected, or they are doomed to fail..For they are feared not respected, to be respected would call for some acts of kindness towards those that serve them, and if none exists...Pure evil charectors, can never run an empire for long, they are doomed to fail, be betrayed or assassinated.

Historically it's a proven fact, and so in Oblivion it is also…Its not that good prevails…I believe its neutrality prevails..For its that fine line, between the two…that usually gains respect, for they neither demand all goodness, or all evil, but for others just to be.

So what is the purpose of a debate that has nothing to do with the orginal Q asked of us.

There I had my piece, its why I do not post in forums, I get drawn in, and always regret it…better I stay silent..My blunt Honesty isn't always well received...its why I I keep saying I will not got to forums, only reply about mods..so I give it a go and see..for this is an International one and a bit more opened minded..hopefully..

Debate is healthy, but round and round going nowhere, trying to debate a moot point, based on different perspectives usually leads to arguments, IME..and leads nowhere…

Now can we get back to the original Q. asked by the person who asked it…as fairness to the one who started this topic..Is love necessary for those who lean more to the darker side..Or is that who needs love Q just to scary to address..

Fencing is fun, and we love it here, wher I am from, as is honest challenges to think, as long as its fair play..and good craic..

My answer we all do, no matter what path we choose, or we are doomed to be betrayed fall, and fail..

Cheers mates

Great thoughtful post.

I don't know that I think this is so much a question as a commentary. There isn't much for "evil" characters to do, but as Aeryn noted, and has been pointed out throughout the thread, no character is purely one or the other, it's all a matter of gray. My example was of my current character, a person of noble character who still got off on creating a huge riot that caused several deaths. Technically her hands remained clean and she didn't get a "murder" count in her stats, but those people are dead because of her actions, so is that GOOD? The dark side certainly emerges in her from time to time. Sometimes she'll have a decent conversation with a Bandit, who will speak with her with total good will. One day she stood by as one such bandit immediately after exchange of pleasantries with her, pulled out his war axe and attacked Legion Guard.

Another day, a similar situation, but this time after the pleasantries, she decided to take out the friendly bandit, because she was certain the good will would deplete when she killed the bandit's comrades.

So much gray area, that a my character who's been righteous throughout this play of the game, still has an opportunity to turn and explore the dark side of herself. This is what makes the game fascinating. Even those who play Dark Characters if they play the whole game, do good works through the different quests, an opportunity to explore the light. And the Count is who he is, my character does not (never has) feared him, and she doesn't seem to mind his unique situation.

I'll have to download that Mages Guild quest, this is the second time someone mentioned it, and Giskard seems AMAZING. Definitely the mods like those are more fodder for exploring the depths of a character, which makes them so human and to me, so fascinating. And I've been thinking about what kind of character I'd like to create next time.. A Bloodless Orc with no conscience seems to be taking hold. Or a Khajitt based on M'aiq. He's awesome. Some of my current character's favorite people are Argonians. They're very cool and would be fun to explore.

You know, it takes several game hours in in-game Cyrodiil to travel between neighbour cities and you can always have a little trip to any nearby cathedral and make it not in three days, but in an hour-two. But... if we're talking about roleplaying (and what the hell is point in "evil" without roleplaying?), those trips should be pretended to last for weeks. Beside, what if a ranger is badly hurt? In Oblivion you can contact Porphyric Haemophilia through a sturdy metal shield when being hit by a dagger. But if we add roleplaying-intended realism... then most likely you're beaten, bitten and bleed bad. Even if you're conscious and can get to somewhere in time, then you are just in no condition to think of deeper diseases besides preventing sepsis. Rangers, huh? And what about those poor five on Azura quest? They weren't really evil, but... no running to chapels or chasing mandrake, just... locking themselves in a mine?! What kind of masochism is that if the cure is so easy as you say?

I didn't say a situation where vampirism could be forced was impossible, and did label it as nitpicking. I suspect people took more from my statement than what I meant... However, I still see some problems with your example. For one, even as far as internally consistent roleplaying goes, the countess of Leyawiin heads all the way to Chorrol-about the farthest distance between two cities you find in the game-and back at the middle of every month. IIRC, less than three days there and back. Aside from that, a ranger surviving wandering into a vampire den heavilly wounded would, in all probability, be after they wiped out the entire den. If the ranger was too heavilly wounded to make it back to a city in other circumstances, even if it was daytime at the time, they likely would be unable to get "clear" of the den and avoid death before nightfall. It seems unlikely a ranger would've raided an entire den without having a Cure Disease effect, instead of ducking out while they were healthy and preparing properly. Then said ranger would have to have no healing items or spells, which seems very improbable for someone who spends so much time away from civilization, and the variety of roleplaying would have to assume resting doesn't heal (Which would further add to the improbability of a ranger having no method of self-healing).

In the event that the ranger does make it back to civilization-near death-before turning, the chapel's full healing is still a perfectly logical destination. Even if the ranger didn't think of this, it would have to be an incredibly close shave for them to manage healing and turn before thinking of getting the disease looked at. In fact, depending on the roleplaying specifics, they would have to fall asleep in-between (which, come to think of it, isn't all that improbable). I don't really understand the Azura worshippers' actions myself, but Bethesda's stories have been patently ridiculous at times, (remember The Siren's Deception?) and I prefer not to put too much stock in them. I'm simply trying to say that you need very special circumstances to become a vampire unwillingly.

Yeah, I saw her. Dropped my jaw when I saw Her damn Highness walking on her FEET on some bandit-infested road ALONE. Her escort followed her half a mile behind, consisting of a SINGLE guard and a serving wench. Really realistic. Well, this game has a lot of such flaws, it's not new.

And... I was going to shoot her when I spotted her. I now regret I didn't

Now on unwillingly... I never played Daggerfall but I read one story, a book from there I suppose. It was about a warrior who went to save an abducted girl. When he found her, she was killed by a vampire, who also wounded the warrior and escaped. And that man didn't even have any idea about what was happening... until three days ran out and he remained ignorant even a little after that until he got a bit of a shocking revelation. That belongs to TES lore.
Now, if the PLAYER knows about vampirism and that it should be cured in three days or that he should avoid healing if he wants his character to be one, then it doesn't mean that his character knows the same and always realises the situation.

Back to the topic, an undoubtedly evil way of becoming a vampire is when the character is not only willing to be one, but seeks it out and is completely prepared to sacrifice others to prolong his life, not even simply save it.

Porphyric Hemophilia does have symptoms, though, so you'd think being mildly ill (Drain Fatigue 5. I did say mildly...) after being beaten up by vampires would be enough to tip a ranger off. If there are no symptoms, it's just more reason to snack on some mandrake root after you're done dealing with them.

Geez, vampiric infection is weird, though. Vincente can pass it on whenever he likes, Gilen Norvalo (but then again, he's inept) says a vampire bite has a small chance of infecting the victim, the player can't infect squat, the Gray Prince's dad seemed to wish he could infect his love, and wilderness vampires can infect 50% of the time by hitting someone with a warhammer. That has to translate into every bite being infectious. Other Oblivion books also suggest being fed on while sleeping does not, in fact, result in puncture-marks, so you have to wonder how it works...

You know I have to agree with you on that one, one time, as i think back, I don't know when or how, it happned really, was not notified as it says most times you have been infected, this time I did not know, I had been infected had not been paying attention to my stats, until I went to sleep, went on fighting in dudgeons for days, until I decided to sleep and had the vampire dream, I woke up I was shocked actually.
I hurriedly looked at me character and sure enough my eyes were pale and my skin ashen..It only happened that once..Of course I hurried to the chapel, but my infamy was to high and was not cured...to make it worse I scorched myself in the sun..

Fortunatey I had the evil lair, and went there, took a bath in the healing vamp pool..whcih only works if you have indeed become a vampire..In that case I did not know..so there are times, I guess when you can contract,Porphyric Hemophilia , not be notified, if you not paying attention to your stats..Can go about for three days without sleep, cave digging, then go to sleep, and wham there you are a vampire..
But I say that was an exception rather than the rule...


Cheers

LoginToDownload, heh, yes, odd game logic

Aeryn, emmm, that's not exactly what I meant, but okay.

Thank you ... I was about to make those points.

Next time, I'll be sure to say "generic character" instead of specific, but I was trying to shoot for "lives off land and doesn't have much to do with civilization" ... and I was assuming the ranger wasn't an alchemist because that's how I play my rangers. Figured it made most sense to give an example of someone who might be stuck in a forced vampirism situation, I didn't intend to start a dispute.



I hope everything is good now.

No worries. You don't need to be an alchemist at all in that case, though, as Cure Disease is the first effect Mandrake Root has. Can we also upgrade it to "Lives off land, doesn't have much to do with civilization, and raids vampire lairs"? I would imagine it'd be pretty common knowledge that caves are always full of dangerous, highly aggressive beings.

True, true.

I'll upgrade that additionally to said character "lives off land, doesn't hand much to do with civilization, raids vampire lairs, and has a an intelligence score of 10 or so."

*sigh*

No, between everyone, the point of vampirism has been well made, but I still see potential loopholes to unwillingness.

Say the vampires kidnap whatever curious adventurer stumbles across their lair and holds them hostage, forcing them to turn.

Workable? (Assume said character is a wholly good-aligned adventurer/ess).

Or what if he hasn't got a mortar & pestle?

And you are all ignoring my amazingly insightful observation that in ES vampires do not have to be played as what is conventionally considered EVIL.
It's just a disease, a handicap.
And as Sarya said, you can't have evil without roleplaying. So that opens up lots of other possibilities.

Oh, as for the trip taking weeks: a cell is 192ft across. Bruma to Leyawiin is 70 cells = 2.54 miles. If it takes roughly 12 hours of travel to get there (we assume at a natural pace of 3mph), the real distance would be 36 miles. So the scale is roughly 1/14. But that's holding time constant, which I think you have to do since you've got a calendar.
OTOH, iif you're roleplaying, then maybe you're severely wounded after going into that vampire den unprepared. So you're crawling along, passing out every 5 minutes. Hours seem like days.

You don't need a mortar and pestle. Just eat the stuff plain. It's the first effect.

Admittedly, I am getting sort of sidetracked...
All the same, unwillingly becoming a vampire is a legitimate facet of the "vampirism isn't evil" argument in general. The disease has more ramifications if willingly accepted.


We're still somewhat lacking a proper definition of evil, but I'd say between general boredom (Two varyingly evil questlines ripe for the trying, and random rampages) and (at earlier levels) the loot available in display cases, evil is easier without roleplaying.

As mentioned before, that poses a problem if the dungeon isn't cleared out while totally unprepared, (the vampires would just come out and finish you off. It's unclear if you could get away before nightfall in that state) requires a complete absence of healing items and spells, and a roleplaying that states the player doesn't heal when resting. (Or at least nowhere close to the game's rate)

You know, personally, I'd deem evil as defined by the laws of a society one is raised under, because in this world, different places in the world see certain things in very different ways from other places. I don't have much of an example, but you get what I mean? I'm sort of saying evil is defined by the values one is raised to have, sort of, but I know there are many gray areas in that theory. That's how I see it, though.

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure it runs as deep as that. Selfishness/selflessness and their effects on others seem significantly more objective than "cultural" wrondoings treading into the territory of honor and such. Perhaps you could say morality is more objective, (though it still means you need to determine an act's perceived/predictable consequences) while ethics is more dependent on culture.