I post this with much trepidation, because I have had a crappy week and I've not exactly been known for keeping the coolest head when it comes to this topic.

However:

Obviously, from the "call for originality" topic below, lots of folks are not entirely pleased with how the image share function works right now. I don't like it *and* theLeeHarvey doesn't like it, and I'm fairly certain that if he & I ever met in real life we would immediately both think to ourselves "Gods, I don't ever wanna see that person again". However, we apparently agree on one thing: the image share part of the site has great potential. Lots of great screenshots - the thing is, the ones he'd like to see more of & the ones I'd like to see more of are also apparently diametrically opposed. So how to please us both?

Here's what I see happening:
1-- Not enough people rate images. The ratings formula is working spectacularly now, and low/high ratings seem to balancing wonderfully. However, a lot of pics have 0 ratings but 100 or so views. So while being able to sort by ratings *should* reflect some popular consensus of greatness, there's simply not enough folks rating for that to be the case.

***Possible solution: Do away with numbered ratings & implement a simple "+" kudos-like system for images. You simply give a "+" to those images that you really like. Some will do that for almost every image they see, some will do it only for a select few. But overall, only those images that really move both types of folks will end up at the "top". And, as it has no negative troll potential, and thus doesn't require commenting/authorship, I think you might end up with the majority of folks "rating", rather than how it is now. That's the main drive for me behind it - getting more of those who view the pics actually rating them.

*** But now how do I suggest/receive critiques to improve screenshots??? Comments. And perhaps commenting could be optional? Then if I leave comments on & someone comes by & leaves me a lengthy New York Times-art-page-worthy dissertation on ways he/she thinks I can improve, it's all good - I asked for that by leaving the comments open. If I just need a place to host a pic & don't care what others think of it, I can turn comments off. Or if I'm having a really bad week & just don't feel up to it with a particularly personal screenshot or something, I can turn off comments on that shot.


2-- "I only like funny/scenic/nude/etc shots - and it's horrid to have to wade through all the nude/scenic/funny shots to get to 'em!" There's just no way around it - the Oblivion community has a wide variety of tastes, and I think it's a testament to the modders that so many can play the game in so many different ways. There's a humongous number of new screenshots uploaded here every day; easy to miss some spectacular shot that might just make your day. I understand the frustration of looking through pages of stuff that isn't to your taste to get to what is.

***Possible Solution: LHammonds has just the solution here - tags. I really think he has that handled, with author-submitted tags needing some sort of approval. That lets you tag images in multiple ways, too. If it were possible to have smart searching of tags (player character but not nude, for example), that would be great.

***Also, how about a "Random 5" sort of button that pops up 5 (or however many is easy) random screenshots, either within the "category" or "tag" or just in general? Great way to pull up some older shots, and stumble upon what you may have missed.


3-- All these screenshooters are just obsessed with being in the top 25/the top 25 is too boring/other top 25 complaints. Indeed, if you're gonna have a top 25, folks are gonna want to be in it. Just human nature.

***Possible Solution: What about a top 100? More people, more variety. I love Rogue Sun's pictures almost more than I love Floydian1's (and we all know I am [rightly, I think ] biased there) but I'm sure Rogue would like to be able to click a top list with many more styles represented. If we had more people rating in some way, it really *should* be a list with a much wider variety. That goes back to the solution for number one, having *something* like a simple button to click where folks are encouraged to "rate".


This may all be way too much work/coding to be done quickly or at all, but I don't know till I put it out there, do I? And perhaps no one agrees at all with any of what I've said, but it seems there's been a lot of frustration with a part of the site that, no matter what your tastes, seems to have a lot of talent on display. Why not work to get it the point where the enjoyment outweighs the frustrations, where everyone feels free to express him/herself in his/her chosen way (within site rules, of course), and still the best & brightest (as recognized by the community) have a place to shine?

I'd go along with kalia in the above post.

The kudos-like system is good, I believe someone already mentioned that, however that complete change from one system to another will be really hard and maybe unfair. I doubt many people will look through the entire gallery just to be fair to older pictures.

That's a good point, Sarya. I wonder if the current ratings could be converted?

And that does tie into: 1-- tags, the more the better. Smaller categories, easier to look through, easier to get to old images; and 2-- a button that pops up random pictures. I for one would probably easily spend hours hitting that random button & kudos-ing older pics. But that's just me.

I personally think the *current* system isn't quite fair to older pictures. How many ratings in total does any picture really get? With "wading through" the mulititudes of images, once something's a day or two old it seems unlikely to get much more attention. :shrug:

I believe the original "kudos" idea may have been Ismelda's, but I could be wrong on that. And of course, it may be nigh impossible for DarkOne; I simply have never coded a website & have no idea.

Did you have suggestions of your own? Maybe everytime you go to look at images, you sigh to yourself "If only...."?

Too many tags will be uncomfortable. There's plenty of adult-picture posters who do not bother with only one tag, how will it improve with many more tags? And there's too much pictures to make moderators tag them for their posters.

Rating should be required when making a comment. Also as I've seen mention of in the other thread anonymous ratings/comments is a bad idea.

If you can't upload an image without a tag, that'd fix that. I believe in the other thread LHammonds was suggesting some sort of way for users to tag images: a certain number of folks tag, that tag gets accepted. But as I said, I just like the idea of tags & I think he's got the way to do it going pretty well, as was expressed in the other thread. I was under the impression you rather liked the idea then.

I did. But that doesn't mean that can be easy. I reported far too many adult untagged pictures in my life.

Yes, that may be reasonable I think, but it would still not protect against bad ratings given on purpose. I saw such a matter and the person you discussed in your first post is not responsible for anything like that, I just checked. Others do.

I'm not so worried about bad ratings at this point. I mean, when the ratings formula wasn't working correctly, one bad rating outweighed 26 good ones. That's simply not the case anymore, and people can rate as harshly/generously as they want far as I'm concerned.

What I do see is pictures with nearly 100 views and at most 3 or 4 ratings.

And, btw, I never mentioned theLeeHarvey's ratings. At least he is rating. This is in no way a rant against him & I hope that's clear. What I'm saying is I disagree with his approach, I am sure he disagrees with mine, and yet we both agree the current Image Share part isn't really working ideally.

Yes, that is clear. In fact, I think he gives a good example to follow (sorry about that phrase, I'm unsure how to build it). I, on the contrary, do not give low ratings as I don't rate pictures I could rate low - I know I won't be heard and understood by the authors.

And what about that formula... how is that a seven among several dozens of 10's can spoil it? There are pictures in top that are not 10 overall, but even as low as 9,05. That's odd, whenever it can be fixed or not.

I entirely agree with most of what Kalia opened up with, Only thing I would add is an anonymous rating option, far too many times have i ticked a few people off by leaving an image an '8' rather then throwing yet another 10 to one of their images which i god honestly beleive does not deserve it. Thus causing possibly a 'report this post' against me, for such a silly reason. I always justify myself, and yet I still see people get angry at it.

Its an image rating on tesnexus. Not life or death.

I don't think that's necessary. What is necessary is making people change their views on ratings. How can we tell normal good pictures from uniquelly outstanding, if the 10 is the only option which is not taken as offence? If 10 is all people want to see, then I vote for kudo system.

I think a general problem with the kudo system would be that it would make it way too general. If someone minutely liked an image, they would + it.

I havnt seen too many ratings below a 5 on this site, so that adds up to alot of +'s. and then the top images would rely on the amount of people that actually rate alone.

*shrug* What happens will happen though.

Well, no one had yet found a perfect solution. There will always be downsides. And yes, kudo system works much better for users who remain in sight rather than images which are drown quickly in the newer ones. However, why bother with picking an appropriate rate, if no one needs that?

Thats just the problem, there is no perfect solution, there may be a better solution, and kudo system might be better, but we'll never know until we see the day it gets implemented.

Well, whatever happens in the end, I'll just go with. I really dont mind either way.

As long as something eases all the tensions in this community, Seems like alot of people are at each others throats lately. And thats whats actually pushing me away from even viewing the images and posting. Its not even fun anymore. Again, people are taking it way too seriously.

Oh well.

Well, actually both too seriously and not seriously enough. The first for hating those giving low rates, and the second for not considering properly the rates they give.

Agreed with a *lot* of what was said.

sakura37, the tension is mainly why I started this thread, this general feeling of frustration. I'm someone who won't rate lower than an 8 because I don't want to discourage an up&coming screenshooter; you perhaps would rarely rate higher than 8 because you only want to give the very best possible ever shots high ratings. Both are valid points of view, both work. (Just database errors before, apparently - and Sarya, yes, one 7 now wouldn't but prior to the database errors being fixed one 7 would indeed knock an otherwise highly-rated pic into Oblivion, so to speak. But that's all done with now, and ratings are reflected *very* fairly I feel. ) However, I think we both from our separate corners are expressing a frustration with the general tone.

To speak to serious/not serious: I have a chronic health condition which severely limits my energy. I struggle just to still be able to hold down a job & support myself, and taking part in outside activities - well, that's a luxury I really don't have. So modding Oblivion, taking screenshots - that's my art, that's my creative expression. I pour my heart & soul into them. I may be the odd one out doing that, but that's how it is. So, yes, I do take it seriously.

I think a lot of the upset over low ratings *is* a holdover from when the formula didn't work. But it's never going to be pleasant to have someone say what you created is "poor". We're all human, that's a natural reaction. However, please note that nowhere in my original post do I complain about the low ratings. I do complain about the lack of ratings. If you're only gonna receive 3 ratings total, and someone with *completely* different artistic tastes than yours comes along & rates your pic a 3, that can be kind of upsetting. Like if you're going for a Beatles-esque vibe and a Rolling Stones fan comes along & says "Eh, that's crap" and you know you're not gonna get any Beatles fans along . . . . Now, if there were gonna usually be 20 ratings, easier to take that one 3 with a grain of salt, and if there are five 3s say "hmm, ok, that picture apparently didn't work".

I am *strongly* against anonymous ratings. There's another site that has that, and let me just say that it is not a pleasant place. Pics get rated down because folks have religious prejudices against the subject matter. Pics get rated down because they're *not* a nude girl. (This is only found out through pms from the formerly 'anonymous' folks or when a huge flame war starts - which is nearly every day.) It's just not pretty. However, having severely limited energy myself, I get how *having* to make some at-least-half-thought-out comment in order to rate really does cut back on the number of folks rating.

That's my main point on the "+" button, really - just lowering the effort needed to 'rate' without absurdly increasing the ease of trolling. I agree it isn't perfect.

My other *main* point *is* how quickly pictures disappear. How there isn't really a good way to browse the "archives", which considering the variety & talent hosted on this site, would really be a pleasant thing to do. And if we could find a way to solve those two points - easy way to browse old pics, easy way to rate -- I think things would work much better.

An example I just stumbled across of a site with "+" and "random 5" stuff going on:
http://www.outdoor-photos.com/

I've no idea the point of the site. And again, not sure it's the best solution. Note too that they have a "+" & a "-" -- perhaps with a high volume of ratings, that'd be possible here. And perhaps it's coded so the minuses can't take a picture into the negative, I don't know.

Hm, i see your point there, and you made a great point that nailed it on the head with the very few number of ratings/number of veiw ratio.
Making the rating system easier would possibly change that.

I was really happy to see the image rating formula be fixed, it really frustrated me back then to see a 10 blow me clean off #13 from the top 25 when two of my images were on it at the time, it seem entirely backwards to me.

You got me wrong with the way i rate though. I start everything out at 9, and then subtract from there accordingly. The 9 stays if theres nothing too terribly bad or wrong with it, but at the same time theres nothing so outsandinly special. The only images that get 10's to me are the ones that truely stand out above the rest. I dont take points off for no reason, i do my best to supply constructive criticism, and tips/tricks for improvement. It would be nice if everyone would do that, I do remember it was you who showed me the 'tm' command in one of my pictures way back, your rating was a....6 i think? but your comment entirely justified why, And i was entirely happy that atleast you backed it up with good reason, and even a method of improvement. on top of complimenting the good that was in the image. I kept the image up with everything wrong with it so i could look back and learn from my mistake.

(http://www.tesnexus.com/imageshare/image.php?id=6659) <--your comment here is what i refer to.

If everyone could be as helpful and *honest* as that. then alot of the problems here might not be..

Ah yes, my one attempt at rating in that style (not that one post, but one short period I did that for) - I felt *sooooo* horrible afterwards, I vowed never to do it again. Whether it was helpful or not to you (and I'm glad it was), it felt wrong to me. It just didn't fit into my own personal sense of beingness. That's not a judgment on others who do rate like that, it just didn't work for me. Honestly, I'm not sure I could call that pic a "6" again.

The thing is, what folks find to be helpful varies. Some folks are looking for tips to improve, some really do just need a place to host an image - and Nexus is so pretty & clean compared to Photobucket. Some just take a funny shot, and aren't interested in console tricks or anything like that. And sometimes the "helpful" can easily come across as patronizing, like the rater knows all about art & the ratee doesn't. It's a fine line to walk.

And I for one can't always *be* helpful, and assume it's probably the same for many others. Today is an extremely rare day energy-wise online, this is probably my quota of words for the month, lol. So sometimes I just wanna browse, give some props, but not have to come up with those pesky *words*. However, being able to just rate a pic "1" without having to justify it & with no accountability - I think that'd go downhill fast.

What if a certain range of ratings didn't require a comment but another did? Let's say anything 8 or above is considered "good" or "good+". (And with the ratings formula fixed an 8 or above *should* be a good rating, and should only help not hinder a pic in perhaps gaining visibility on some top list.) So that's a simple button-click. Anything 7 or lowers requires a comment, and the amount of comment being a moderator call if report button is used. I'm picturing like this:
"I rate this pic 7
Nice pic, but you forgot to toggle of the menu (TM in the console if you didn't know)"
or
"I rate this pic a 4
{insert much longer explanation of the pluses & minuses you saw in the pic}"

I still don't think this is quite the solution. It seems - well, it would certainly weight *commenting* towards the negative ratings perhaps, and that might just make those sting more. And then it's also weighted kudos-like towards just giving good ratings, which some here may feel is not an improvement. I also don't know if it'd be unwieldy from the coding side.

Ah well, dont worry about the 6 at all kalia, dont worry, i assure you, i wasnt mad

on another thing you mentioned, the "random 5" idea would be great. it would bring older pictures right into the spotlight again. hell id go so far as to add a "randomise" search, and the stie just draws in random images from its entire data base on a page. that would be neat!

Imo, I think the rating system was put there for nothing, I don't see a point in it, besides giving encouragement. I don't think it's a contest, that's not a bad idea, but I don't see any point in being competitive or too judgmental about it with your rating.
I've never rated anything on the nexus lower than a 10, because I try and encourage the people who have taken those shots, I'm not a critic.

Lot of good comments in this thread.
I have gotten to the point that if a picture already has a 10, I won't rate it unless it's exceptional and want to give it a 10. It is difficult for me to rate a picture above a 9. The only pictures I would rate a 10 are those that I would want on my wall in my home and I would see every day. I don't rate high because they're "cute" or just because I like the person. People too easily get their feelings hurt or others become upset with lower/honest ratings. Bottom line is, I dislike the rating system and feel the pictures should be posted for enjoyment or ignored, depending on preferences.

So seems we've got people on two sides of the issue - *only* give 10s period & only give 10s to spectacular pics - both saying they just don't like the ratings system. So things I think we can see agreement on:

Current ratings system seems to breed more ill than good - for no fault of its creator, just happens to not have worked out well in this instance. Do those who don't like ratings at all like a simple "+" system? And if that were implemented, what ideas are there for encouraging constructive feedback for those who desire it? If we've no ratings system, we've also no top 25/100/whatever - so would a "random 25" take the place of that? On esf some time ago someone suggested a kittenwars-like thing, would that perhaps be the replacement? Perhaps as an extra check on submission - "submit my pic in the image war [a different name would be better]". Hmmm*. Also seems to be agreed that any sort of ratings system adjustment/replacement would want to focus mainly on increasing the number of ratings (while still avoiding making it too easy to troll, and thus creating more work for our moderators).

Tags are good - doesn't seem to be much argument on tags being good, just that there shouldn't be a limitless number of tags & that it shouldn't be solely at author discretion. Useful, of course, only if we can also filter searches by tag. Seems if folks wanted to start suggesting tags here . . . .

At least one other person agrees that a way to pull some amount of random pics for viewing would be good.


* Image battle - you submit a pic to it, 2 pics are drawn at random from the pool of submissions & pitted against each other for, say, a week. Folks vote for one or other, winners - get a little symbol/tag on the images (so you could filter by image battle [so need a better name]) maybe? And again, perhaps it's a voluntary thing, so if you're not into the whole competition thing, you just opt out. It's a silly thing, and the votes have no comments, and it's just one screenshot vs one other screenshot & happens so often that it's perhaps much less personal. Then again, someone like Floydian1 who takes a *lot* of screenshots might end up dominating the pool - but then again as it'd be random, perhaps he'd be competing against himself a lot.


The other thing again is encouraging feedback, which seems to be a struggle on any screenshot thread/site. It just takes a lot of energy to put together coherent sentences sometimes. But hey - maybe that could be a tag? "Feedback especially desired"? (Probably shortened to "feedback", lol.) And then folks who do want to give back & do critiquing or anything like that could *first* browse that section - and you'd put that tag on your picture at your own risk, so to speak. Of course, site rules would still apply & posts could be reported, but I think we've got an exceptionally fair moderating staff here and people could post honest feedback without fear of being instabanned or anything like that, especially as such criticism would of course focus on the technique & not the content. (I.e, "this shot could have been lit better" rather than "another landscape shot - I'm so bored with those", just to define what I'm saying.)

Taking off the top 25 and replacing it with random 25 would be an awesome idea to me, it would stop this petty competition everyones in to get up there. The '+' Idea would be nice too with the top 25 removed/replaced.

i like the image battle idea, the problem with that i see is you could get the same person's images on both sides! so it shouldnt allow someone like floydian with his mass number of images to compete with himself.

I always, ALWAYS want feedback on any image i upload, yea a nice simple 10 with "pretty" tagged on is nice, but id rather people to thoroughly go into what they like or dont like. its those ratings and comments i take most to heart, even if the rating is low, I love constructive criticism!

great suggestions kalia.

I'm also always hesitant about giving a picture a lower rating... A + system, random 25, etc all sounds wonderful to me, though.

Just read through the "Call for Originality" thread and then a little through this one.

I'll just say I hope something changes when and IF I do return to this community. Because I'm leaving and going to spend my time playing this awesome game. I've gotten too dragged into this competition over images lately and all I do is take screen shots rather than, well ... play Oblivion. I've barely gotten much through the game! And it makes me sad to see some of the quarreling going on around here.

Anyway, I'm ranting off topic from the thread topic. I like the random 25 idea a lot. And I hope you all come to a decision on the system, and good luck. I might be back. After all, Oblivion is my favorite RPG.

Amazing ideas here so far though. Good luck again!

I'm off.

I believe that screen shots are basically artistic expression....at least the majority. Some are posted as ..hey this was cool looking..look at my new person/armor/sword..what have you. But most are art.

As such we can dance around til the cows come home (yes I am from the country) and not agree on a screenie. Rating them is so subjective it is almost impossible to have any kind of fair system in that sense.

In very few shots have I seen a completely objective thing of which to comment..example...the lighting is bad and I cant see your person. So anything else is a matter of opinion and all is relative. I uploaded a bunch of save games and the characters which I felt were the coolest/pretties..etc...were not the ones that have been DL the most..all opinion.

So...what I think would be cool is this...(taking from what others have said)

One place where you can post photos...only for kudos and comments of nice work..where'd you get that hair..blah blah.

Then have the play-off screenie battle...like per day or week. 2 pics or maybe a group going mano a mano for bragging rights. A random pick based (on the specifically submitted pics) on uploader name...that way the same person wont battle themselves...that isnt fun. And maybe a limit on the number of pics that you can put up for consideration. The battle only draws from pics submitted after the thing is set up and random pick only within certain time frame. Then you can have winners of the day/week/month..etc.

It isn't perfect (and really people...what is in life...compromise is the name of the game here)...but lets you get your screenies seen to share for that sake..or to get peoples input. Then another place to put up your dukes so to speak and get rated. If restrictions of time and number are put on then I think people would only put what they believe to be their best work up.

I have no idea if this is possible computer-wise....but it seems like a good idea. I am glad that Kalia thought of this thread.

Thank you for your time and website space.

What you don't want to end up is an image top rated page like PES, although of coarse awesome in it's picture content, it has been and now is completely static as the pics there gained their positions when the site was at the height of it's popularity, now I rarely see any screenshot on there get the required 5 votes to even get on the list (the number 1 has 48) and most pics attract no votes at all.

Note I'm reading this thread but changes to the image share section aren't high on my priority list right now. That doesn't mean it might not get done in the near future but it's highly dependent on circumstances.

So keep the ideas coming and when I get around to it I'll be sure to give this thread a good read through when coming to any decisions on changes.

Thanks to all for the continuing input. DarkOne, I think it's understood that the file system functionality comes first. Intention here is to get some community consensus, so when you do have the time to take a look at the images section, we've got a nifty little wish list for you. Particularly I think everyone uploads/downloads/searches for files, but not everyone is involved in taking screenshots, so it's all that more important that those of us who *do* enjoy this form of art to say how the system works/doesn't work for us. I hope that at the least this discussion eases some of the tension, as we work towards what we want it to be, and perhaps some of the things we come up with are easy enough to implement that they can be moved on in some relatively quick fashion. (In, say, the next year or so. )


So far, this is what I see as consensus:

*Move from numerical ratings to a simple "+" kudos system. Bit of a shame, as we just got the pretty formula for numbered ratings working correctly , but people seem to feel that when it comes to images the numerical ratings are causing more harm than good. A bunch of folks are using the numerical ratings as a kudos system already, *only* rating those images they'd give a 10 anyway.

*Do away with the top 25 list altogether, replacing it with 25 random images. This would gain more attention for older pictures as they are pulled randomly up onto this "front" list. Since we'd have a kudos system, perhaps a search of "highest-kudos'd" would be in place, but it would not have the prominent display of the top 25 list. This would also address the static top list issue that Floyd brings up. There's a cycle there: it's hard to look back through the archives, so most folks go the top 25 list, so those images get more ratings, so they stay longer on the top 25 list, getting more ratings . . . .

*For the "competitive" aspect, add a kittenwars-type image battle. 1 image vs 1 other image, voting for day/week (I think month would be too long); submission to this is uploader's choice; some sort of coding so that it never is just one person's images vs each other; some sort of limit on the number of images in the "queue" from any one person at any one time. For example, I upload a picture, check a box that says "submit to ImageWars [uggh on the name]", but I can only have say 5 or 10 images submitted at any one time (depending probably on how long the voting lasts - if it only lasts a day, pics move more quickly, perhaps you can have more images submitted at once).

*Tags, tags, tags! And search by tags. Specifically mentioned: a "feedback" tag, for those who particularly are interested in indepth critiques of their shots. Tags not just at authors discretion, and some sort of tagging required at submission? I think another good tag would be "Character Portraits" or some such thing, and "Scenery/Landscapes". A tag for the winners of the ImageWars [really want a different name] thing would be great too, and make displaying those screens a nice thing.

There are already catagories set up for pictures like aethetics, comba, general ... maybe we can refine that and add an adult catagory, and use that to sort out the pictures and have a top 20 in each catagory. I think the catagory list is vastly underused here.

To get more votes, we can have a funtion where people can add their picture into a voting pool, asking for more votes. After 5 votes or 7 days, it gets removed from the pool, and user can add it again to the top of the pool, etc. This way people who really want the votes can have a place to show off their pictures.

Also in my opinion top 25 formula should also inlude number of views it gets. I see some pictures with thousands of views but no votes. Clearly they were popular for a reason, no? Anyways it'd be nice not to count the times when I look at my own pictures to check comments etc. Maybe we can have an all time top 25 list, and then a recent fav 25 section where it lists top popular pictures of the past month that is based on votes and views?

Sometimes I wish there is a bump function, when someone other than the original uploader leaves a comment, the picture gets bumped to the top like in the threads. It'll give these pictures more exposure, and it makes it easier for users to track comments this way. Sometimes people leave me a comment months after I upload a picture, and usually I have no clue the new comments are there unless I check that picture specificly. If not bump, a notify funciton via pm will be cool too.

And finally a big thank you to everyone for this awesome site.

There seems to be alot of us who think something is wrong with the image share section. Personally, I think several good ideas have been submitted over the course of this thread. Doing away with the top 25 is one that really speaks to me as in my opinion all the top 25 does is engender competition and set fellow site members against each other. As Lisnpuppy said, contests would be good I think because those who want to participate could and those who don't care, well, no pressure. Also, Kalia, your idea about being able to turn off commenting on our pictures in the image share section would save a lot of headaches.

Kalia, you have been right about me in one crucial respect. I have a completely different outlook from you. I rate the way I want to be rated as I'm sure you do but here is how we differ. If one of my posted images sucks, I want to be told so. All I ask is that you (and I mean you in the general sense here) don't do it in a Trolling manner, make your comments constructive even if they are negative. It's only going to show me what I need to improve on and chances are I'll thank somebody for a low rating just as I will for a high rating so long as they have left thorough, honest, constructive criticism.

I realize that ratings are going to be highly subjective by nature and that's why I try to leave a completely objective comment. I'm not going to wipe anybody's nose and treat them with kid gloves, but I'm not going to kick them in the junk either. I find leaving a constructive comment to be difficult in the extreme sometimes, because I realize there are more sensitive folks than me who belong to this site and ultimately, I don't enjoy making somebody else feel like dog-sh*t (unless they do it to me first and that can be hard to do as I tend to get angry rather than hurt). When it comes down to it though, I'm going to call an apple an apple and an orange an orange, you know what I mean? It's just how I want to be treated and it seems only fair.

I also agree that the current rating system isn't maybe what it's cracked up to be, but I don't think it's a failure either. As I've said before, I appreciate the ability to get feedback on pictures that aren't so good and could use improvement. If no one ever rated any pictures low, all we'd have are badly taken and effortless, thoughtless even, screenshots to look at. Nobody is the perfect Screen-Artist and we all can be better, even those of us who do a damn good job already and I can think of a few who are very good.

Without a rating system and comments how would you know what to work on to become even better at something you already love doing? Isn't getting better at something part of the fun of it? I just look at this from a model-builder's perspective I guess. A kudos-like system instead of the current rating system, in my opinion, is too ambiguous.

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty I'm afraid it's going to be all about the individuals mind set when they read the comments they've been given. I think a certain value should be placed on keeping an open mind and developing a thick skin. Nobody should be leaving malicious comments and those who do tend to get gone in short order thanks to our dedicated moderating staff. We just need to take things with a smile and a grain of salt because really in the grand scheme of things, this is just a game. They're just computer generated images and really, what effect on your life can there be? If getting a rating less than an 8 makes you want to crawl into a dark corner and cry yourself into oblivion (no pun intended), I'd suggest thinking about not posting you work for others to see. When you open yourself to other people's opinions you put yourself in the firing line. If you can't survive a hit, don't pick up the gun.

Here is a link to an article I wrote that explains in better detail I think, my outlook on the image share section and rating system and it's uses. I'm sure a few have read it already but, here it is in case others are curious as to the thought processes behind the ratings and comments I leave.
http://tesnexus.com/articles/article.php?id=114

LeeHarvey

So it seems everyone's pretty much done with the top 25, lol. A random 25 seems to appeal to several folks.

If there is no top 25, or top listing, a kudos system does seem somewhat - superfluous. The head-to-head competition, drawn at random, done often enough for loads of screens to go through it, that seems a better way for some sort of "judging" or "ranking".

LeeHarvey, I don't dislike the idea of critiquing - but I think the issue comes when attaching a number to it. To you, a "6" means one thing & you'd give it to a certain type of image, to me it means something entirely different - and when I see a "6" I of course immediately react to *my* definition. I'd rather encourage *comments* & leave the number system out of it, myself. I don't need to know this particular picture is 5 slots lower than some person's "perfection" and this other picture is 4 slots lower. *shrug* What do you think of a "feedback" tag? If that were implemented, perhaps it would encourage commenting. I think there are those who are uncertain about leaving even constructive criticism, but if they saw a tag indicating the person desired it.... And then perhaps there could be some actual discussions back & forth in the comments, several varying opinions about the structure & setup of the shot, as those with different backgrounds & tastes offer up their insights.

This is I think entirely off-topic (as the topic is more about system changes we can make - and changing people's behaviors is probably a bit beyond DarkOne's coding skills ), but I'll just say briefly that I somewhat disagree about the "thicker skin" stuff that a lot of people say. It's true, if you're gonna put something on the internet you are opening yourself up to whatever. But I'd rather have someone who is sensitive & emotionally open & pours that into his/her art retain some of that then just close it all down in order to not get offended when their art is torn apart. (And even the most "fair" review can still feel like being torn apart.) I think there's a balance to be maintained. I also think it's impossible to judge any art purely objectively, as in my mind the whole point of art is to achieve an emotional connection, and that's such an individual response. Even the lack of lighting in one shot that just makes it hard to see for me may actually evoke some mood & memories for someone else. But those are just my opinions, just how I approach the subject.


Shinytickles - the ratings pool idea sounds good, also a bit like the random 25 though. A way to bring images back up to the front. The categories do exist - specifically adult is already a question at least - but there's no way to search by them. So categories or tags, though I think the kind of functionality we're talking about I see more often associated with tags.

One other possibility that may (or not) work:
In the Thief 2 community, the modders there have contest missions and who did what are not released until after people have voted on it.
It would not be an easy programing task, but it may be interesting to not have the names of who did what picture for....um say 30 days pop up. It's enough time for people to rate, and at the 30 days, the vote/rates are locked in. It stays the same until the picture is removed.
People would vote strictly for the shot, not because we're friends or they are favourites. (we all do that) Some people have styles that are close enough to each other, it's difficult at times to tell who did what.
But shots like I do that are completely different from the norm would be disqualified since the poster would pretty much be a give away.

Well maybe the people who give 10's should give a BETTER reason why they gave it that score. It bothers me when I see a post like "10 as always for you" or "10 because it's been made by (insert author here)" The worst is when someone gives a 10 and leaves a very vague reason like "marvelous" or "great!" Tell us why it is "marvellous" or "great" and tell us your sincere opinions.

That's treading into sort of unclear ground as far as "What makes a good picture". If you can't rate 10 if all you have is opinions/abstracts, then the alternative seems to be either A: Rating pictures by a clearly-defined formula, or B: Needing to include at least one piece of constructive criticism with a rating. If a formula is adopted, I sincerely doubt there's a way of separating basic and uninteresting "posing character with body-mod and custom clothing" pictures from more interesting/stylish ones that are also focused on a posing character using custom clothing and a body mod, (All three of which come hugely in handy for screenshots in general) and one bit of "constructive criticism" justifying a 10/1 (Now that ratings would need to be justified) seems like it would still come back to if the person "likes" the picture, except that the uploaders would get more help from the commenters/raters. If they can find something constructive to point out or still be bothered at all, of course.

I wonder if that could be included as a reason for reporting.

The thing is, the more we "require" for any rating, the fewer people are gonna rate.

I think it might be helpful if we accept a few things: there are those who despise the numerical rating system & will never leave less than a 10, because they only want to encourage those they like, and don't feel it's their place to do anything else. I don't think anything said here is going to change those folks' minds. There are those who will only give a 10 on a rare occasion when a picture absolutely blows them away in a way no other picture has, and mostly want to give 6's -- and I don't think anything said here is going to change the mind of those folks. The other thing is, right now, the total number of both is - well, maybe 10 people. Seriously, anyone here regularly get more than 4 ratings per picture? Isn't 4, like, "wow I got 4 ratings!" If we had 100 or 200 people rating images regularly, the few like me wouldn't bug the rest of you so much, and the "harsh" ratings (sorry, it's early for me & can't come up with a more neutral term - so just please take that as neutral) wouldn't stand out so much in comparison. But I simply don't see numbers like that coming in.

So this is the premise I'm going on: I'm not gonna suddenly start rating more "harshly" than I do. (I actually am rating honestly: the pictures I give a 10 to (which are many) I actually do feel are top-notch pictures. The ones I'd give 6s or 7s to are generally pictures whose style just doesn't interest me - like moszibby's, no offense to him. He happens to take pictures that just don't connect to me. So I wouldn't give 'em 10s, personally, but then again why should I rate 'em at all? Clearly I'm not his target audience, he's going for something different.) People who do rate "harshly" aren't gonna suddenly stop that & give all 10s. And people who aren't rating at all with the current setup aren't suddenly gonna start rating.

I'd like to see a lot more input on the pictures. A lot. If we're gonna have a numerical rating system with the top pictures decided by a formula based on imdb.com's, we really need imdb.com-like numbers of ratings being given. That's not happening. Things I see about that: having to come up with a comment for your rating takes some energy, and limits the number of people who rate. But being able to give a low rating with no comment *will* (the internet has shown us this ) lead to trolling, to folks rating low because of personal vendettas or crusades or whatever. Now, a general consensus in this thread seems to be that the top 25 needs to go; it only breeds discontent and encourages an undue focus on ratings. But if the top 25 is gone, why do we need ratings at all? Why not try to come up with something else that encourages *comments*? Seems to me those that have problems with so many 10s going out don't so much have a problem with the *10* as with the lack of feedback. Sort of "a 10 & that's it? That doesn't help me at all! How am I gonna improve?" (Obviously, one wouldn't care much if others' pictures are getting 10s, right? I mean, if one isn't caught up in being on the top 25 or being top-ranked then the only concern is the feedback one's own pictures are receiving. )

So how about this picture: no more ratings, not even a kudos system. The pictures are there to be shared, not to compete against each other. And without even a kudos system, if you want to give the author praise you will have to leave *some* sort of comment. There's a "feedback wanted" tag, hopefully somewhat noticeable, that you can add to your image when uploading. I think a lot of people would leave more detailed comments when there's an indication the author *wants* such criticism. Note that this wouldn't preclude those who wanted to from leaving feedback on pictures without the tag, with the same reporting standards as we have today applying across the board.

For the competitive within us, there's a simpler, more fun, kittenwars type head-to-head battle. At upload, you pick whether to submit your image also in the pool for this, and only so many images can be in from any one artist at any one time. I personally think the battle should be daily, just because we do have a high volume of images uploaded every day. And if possible it's set up so that it's never one artist battling against him/herself. Because it goes quickly, because there's always tomorrow's battle, and because so many images will have a chance to participate, the sour grapes aspect of losing should be very limited. Winners get a little tag that can be searched by. And perhaps every so often there's some sort of run of "prior winner" battles, leading up to some extra tag for the eventual winner of that, like some sort of tournament.

Replacing the top 25 is a "random 25", a pull of random images from throughout the database. This is a way to bring past images back up to the "front" to get attention and, again, feedback. Perhaps its also available by "category" or "tag", however that ends up being set up.

And that's the other bit - having categories or tags that are searchable (and also hopefully can be used as ways to exclude images from searches, as in "character portraits" but *not* "adult"), so that one can browse images in a category that particularly appeals to one, without have to wade through a bunch of images that one's tired of. Perhaps there could also be some sort of "favorites" thing the user could apply to an uploader, so that you'd have a section populated with screens from your favorite artists?

Well, after so many words of wisdom spoken in all the posts above I, just a mere uploader, have something to say as well,)
The "+" and "-" system should fit if combined with an option of leaving a comment. I think there is always someone who needs some verbal support, so let's leave a chance for a viewer to say something, even subjective. To mark the positive or the negative things. But unfortunately the comments that lack objectivity will always appear, that can't be fixed.
Top 25 (or top 100), why not letting it live? For someone, maybe, this is a challenging option, a way to compete with others. I really don't care if I'm in the top or out of it - those who get interested with my pics can always see all of them by doing a few clicks. There will always be a lot of people uploading far better images than me - well, I'm always glad to support them. It ain't easy to take a really good shot.
Can't think of anything more right now, maybe I'll have something to say later. But one thing is for sure - there will be no proper working of any rating or commenting system without objectivity, good sense and mutual repect.
Sorry if I'm repeating someone's words, might not have read the previous posts carefully.

Kalia--tou said:

So this is the premise I'm going on: I'm not gonna suddenly start rating more "harshly" than I do. (I actually am rating honestly: the pictures I give a 10 to (which are many) I actually do feel are top-notch pictures. The ones I'd give 6s or 7s to are generally pictures whose style just doesn't interest me - like moszibby's, no offense to him. He happens to take pictures that just don't connect to me. So I wouldn't give 'em 10s, personally, but then again why should I rate 'em at all? Clearly I'm not his target audience, he's going for something different.) People who do rate "harshly" aren't gonna suddenly stop that & give all 10s. And people who aren't rating at all with the current setup aren't suddenly gonna start rating.

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That is the thing to which I am referring in my prior post. Rating pictures is too subjective. A person may give a lower rating to a style you don't like. But that isn't an objective thing. And indeed why would you rate at all....maybe that is why the ratings system should just go and replaced with kudos or some such. It is impossible to have a rating sytem that everyone can agree based on something so subjective as artistic taste. Look how many issues we have with mod rating and that at least has a bit more objectivity to it.

I personally take screenshots and post the occastional one. However I think we should just completely do away with the top 25 images for the reason I have listed before. Unless it is some kind of battle of the pics then really it just seems to be more trouble than its worth. Even if we had a VS system I am sure people would still be unhappy. I don't know why we cant just post the screenies....have a place for people to say they like it or ask questions but not rate, not have a Top 25.

And please, please, someone, separate gallery's adult filter from the one for files. I may want to download partially modest adult files like Apachii but I REALLY do not want to see all that porn that appears in the gallery regularly, like now. I'm tired of switching five times a day
Pleeeeease?

Could perhaps the adult thing be taken care of with tags? For instance, a search filter could filter *out* adult tags. (And again, tagging is mandatory & not just at author's discretion -- for instance, you could report that an image should have an adult tag to a moderator, or if a certain number of users vote for an additional tag the author didn't use it gets added or something.) (I'm concerned there about monitoring tags becoming an overwhelming task for the moderators.)

It seems that moving this topic wasn't beneficial for it. Most people who are interested in it mostly appear in General Oblivion area, if they visit forums at all, and rarely ever go here.

I've actually read this topic a couple of days back, and I understand and respect the varying needs/wants of members here who wish for the improvement or change in the rating system and the imageshare section in general.

Just as a personal feedback (without assuming whether I am speaking for anyone else or not), I would really like the ability to turn off ratings, which I understand to be applicable to those who upload their mods on this site.

Until then, I've begun and will continue to put a little note on the description to my own image uploads, hoping to somehow have a little personal control over them. I am confident that in general, I'm part of a demographic that just wants a little peace and less headaches over such a wonderful section that we've been granted with within the Nexus.

I've heard these from several people now in this thread and other places and these sound like decent ideas to me. Let us recap.

1. No more top 25

2. Option for leaving comments/ratings. It's at the discretion of the uploader whether they want their pictures rated and commented on.

3. the ability to search through pictures by some sort of filter/tag system.

Seems to me like these three simple things would make a big difference for the better.

Not that my opinion on this really matters, since I don't use the image share system, but perhaps I should explain why I don't. If I were to upload a picture, it would not be for the purpose of displaying art for critique. I take screenshots for various reasons, be it illustrative, explanatory, amusing, picturesque, or memorable. If I were to add such an image to the image share it would be so that I could share those ideas with others, not have it earn a rank in a "top rated" list. As such, I have no use for a ratings list, nor even comments on the images, except in whatever thread from which I might refer to them. Therefore I've been storing my images on my Picasa account instead, since the image share section seems (from these debates) to consist of a majority of people who care about ratings and specific kinds of art.

Additionally, I find the ratings here to be almost meaningless, judging from the ratings on mods, since most people rate either 1 or 10, and very little in between. And since most of those who rate 1 end up getting banned, the ratings are seriously skewed. And there are those who consider 10 to be the default, and anything less than 10 requires justification or else the rating is removed. For this reason, there's what's called a "file drawer effect" which I see in myself, where I never rate anything unless I think it's worth a 10. Just from what I read in this thread, I see everyone seems to have different philosophies on how to rate things, which makes it mean even less.

Rather than eliminate the top 25 list, as you suggest TheLeeHarvey, why not leave it there only for those who want to use it? Those who don't want to be included in it (or don't care) need only select the aforementioned hypothetical option to disallow ratings and/or comments and be automatically excluded.

I think most important is to make sure the tag system is meaningful, objectively descriptive rather than subjectively content-judged, and has the option for "not" displaying any images which bear particular tags.

What? I would not consider my statement flaming or insulting. Perhaps it was considered harsh through some people's points of view, but I would not consider that a reason to "report" me. I am simply stating my sincere belifs.

Kresselack, I wasnt truly serious, but giving a high rating to something and not even sparing a little time for explanation why exactly is actually wrong. Nothing is simply awesome. But something may be awesome for a really good reason - or many really good reasons.

Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding. I am also glad that we both acknowledge the problem.

The image share section is now next on my to-do list, minus some technical tweaks and investigative work that I need to do re: server performance. I obviously still can't give a time-frame for when work will begin (summer, other projects, social life, etc.) but now is the time to get it all out of your system and let me know what you think needs to be done.

Randomised images, yes.
Better usage of categories, yes.
Tagging system, maybe. <-- It's a BALL ACHE to do and would need a better idea of why you would need tags over just better usage of categories

You also need to be a bit realistic regarding the sorts of features implemented. Tournaments probably aren't going to happen any time soon, but daily face-offs? Quite possibly. The system needs to accommodate uploaders AND viewers of the system; some people use the database just to look at cool pictures and they want to see the ones that other people think are the best to look at; i.e. removing the top 25 is all well and good, but there needs to be a system that psuedo replaces the effect the top 25 had for viewers...a quick and easy look at some great looking pictures. How can that effect be reached? Is it fair to show-case face-off winners based on a randomised system?

Removing ratings probably won't happen, but the way the rating system operates will. At the moment I'm thinking changing it to a kudos-based rating system. People can only give 1 rating point and it can only be positive. Kalia's idea of there being an uploader flag that asks for feedback is a nice touch as well. Obviously you'll be able to decline from having your images rated or commented if you so wish.

Let it all out and I can review it all and write up my design doc.