I read LOTR and the silmarilion, and nowhere does it say that elves have pointy ears !! could it be that all those years people got the wrong idea ?!?!?!

I didnt even question it until I saw some drawings of Tolkien's work from the 60's or 70's, and the elves are fair and well built but without the trademark ears.
In fact they look just like tall and handsome/beautiful humans...

As a veteran AD&D player I have to say that the whole concept of elves without pointed ears totally creeps me out. I hope someone will prove the pointedness of tolkien elves' (Tolmer ? ) ears

the funniest part is that soem hummans have quite pointed ears (like my friend
but so what no where does it say in any book that these elves are from tolkien and there were stories about elves (mainly norse) so pointed elves may not be taken from tolkien and peeps that first started drawing elves as they pictured them in tolkien might know norse mythology
I hope this makes sence ...

I always pictured elves with a slight tip to their ears. Not rounded like humans.

Agreed. There was a debate that I read about as to whether or not the Elves had pointed ears. It was much like the 'Balrog-Wings, Balrog-No-Wings' debate. Again Tolkien never really specified about that, though some will say that the evidence can be found in the name (I have no idea about this, but someone who knows sindarin and quenya could possibly elaborate). Tolkien only said that the Elves were fair of face and tall, though I do like to think that they had pointed tips but not full on pointy ears. Like Rynos' description.

well the idea of pointy ears did come from norse myths tho and its just such an intergral part of our culture that we assume that they all have pointy ears but tolkien did read uo on norse mythos if im not misstaken but may have just not have immagined it with pointy ears but that doesnt stop you from giving them pointy ears but for this mod it will be jsut like tolkien immagined it meaning no ears...
or so i think...

Oh...... But weren't norse elves kinda dwarf like ? Although there were huge "dwarves" , the name "alf" meant dwarf.
Btw the land of the dark "elves" of norse myth is called Svartalfheim, "Dark Dwarf Home". Sounds Kinda similar to Vvardenfell.
I remember from somewhere that there's no real connection between Tolkien elves and norse elves.

lol, it'll be pretty stupid if ME elves turned out to have normal ears, or maybe no ears, but holes. There's only man alive who knows the answer to this question: Daerk. Too bad he can't get online...

Well, when I watched the films I was acctually surprised to see that elves had pointy ears (and also hobbits). In the German version of LotR elves aren't called "Elfen" (this would be the direct translation) but "Elben", a much older and more "exalted" word than Elfen. I think that Elben comes from the old Highgerman (and Nors) word Alben. See "Ring des Nibelungen" and "Niebelungenlied", there it is written Alben. As I recall, Tolkien himself chose the word Elben, because it would better represent his idea of elves. I never immagined myself elves with pointy ears but rather tall, blond or black haired, very beautiful human like creature which have somekind of "inner light" that can be seen in their eyes. I don't mean litterally light, but you probably get what I mean.

I only read the book after I'd seen the Fellowship. So I already got pointy ears in my head. As well as characters.. Bit a shame.

Thanks for posting that info. Darnoc. That's what I remember being a part of the debate that I had read on a seperate page (not on this site). There was, however, another argument that was equally persuasive on the pointed tips or 'leaf-shaped' (not full on MW Dark-Elf ears) side of the argument. In any case, I believe that the Elves should be represented by however Tolkien ment them to look like.

Though, I think that having slightly pointed tips would make them seem not as human, aside from having that inner light and the fierce bright eyes...

And this is the only bad thing about the movies/elvish interpratation... after watching them or reading somewhere else about them you get a image in your mind of what they look like, and when you go to read Tolkien's books you see Orlando Bloom instead of Legolas... Viggo instead of Aragorn. So the only people who can really debate about any of the topics are people who only read Tolkien's works and not any other author of watched any movies...

*Rynos abducts a new born and puts him in a white room with only Tolkien books. "Let my experiment BEGIN! We shall have answers in 10-14 years only!"*

I have always thought of his elves with pointed ears, but now I have seen the movies and my ideas are more entrenched than ever It would seem weird to me to see elves without at least slightly pointed ears, but I guess I would get used to it.

I just looked the word Alben up in the "Ring des Nibelungen". There, in the riddle of the Wanderer, it says that there are three races: Lichtalben (the gods), Erdalben (the giants) and Schwarzalben (the dwarves). Here Alben is used to describe every race and not only one. Also in the Nibelungenlied Alben is only used to describe the Nibelungen (dwarves). So Alben means probably dwarve and not elf (at least Blackalfs). I don't know why Tolkien thought that Elben would be the better translation for his elves than Elfen.

to lazy to dig up passages right now, but I'm pretty sure that Elves and men had similar physical appearance. Elves being of greater stature and faculty in the first age and "fading" as time passes. Nothing is ever specifically mentioned about ears, but if Elves and men look the same....

Ok, I think its pretty well established that Tolkien didnt give his elves pointy ears.
Where did the concept of pointed elven ears originate then ? Im talking about the more majestic elves of recent fantasy, not santa elves or pixies or anything.

Btw this question is like asking "why does the sun come up" IMO...

Im guessing that they did actually come from the idea of pixies and santa's elves, because people usually generally things so they could think that as santa's elves have pointy ears maybe every elf has pointer ears

Yeah that was the reason why Tolkien choose Elben and not Elfen in the German translation: Because everyone would think of pixie elves with pointy ears and wings, when he would have chosen Elfen. I even read somewhere that Tolkien liked the german translation better than the original english text because of the word Elben he could use to describe his kind of elves.

Also, the Elves were originally called the 'Gnomes' if you have ever read The Lays of Beleriand, or The Lost Road and Other Writings.

Can you imagine the outcome if he kept the name 'Gnomes' instead of Elves?

*shudders in thought

I think the term "Gnomes" only referred to the Noldorin Elves.

Yes, but still. 'Gnomes'??? I couldn't take Feanor seriously if he was called 'Feanor the Gnome' it sounds just goofy.

I'd rather associate elves with pixies rather then gnomes, when i think of gnomes i see the little men with fishing rods and red hats in people gardens lol

From one of the Q&A articles on TheOneRing.net, here is an excerpt:

I think it's generaly accepted by most people on earth that elves has pointy ears. I've grown up with the same idea, you see elves with pointy ears in most cartoons or fairy tails.

I guess that's why most people think elves should have pointy ears.

Whoa, Eddy Lukin, thanks !! you actually answered my question !!



So Tolkien elves' ears aren't uber-pointy like the ones in MW, but slightly pointed.

I understand. I still think it would be funny though, if the mighty Feanor was a 'Gnome'. But Eddie Lukin posted the other part that I was talking about, the pro-pointy ears information. I just couldn't remember what it was...

Tolkien did call the Noldor "Gnomes", simply because he took it by its actual meaning, and not the one attributed to it. "Gnome" derives from Ancient Greek gnwmh (can't find the key for the acute, sorry) which means "opinion", but refers also to "wisdom". Thus, "Gnomes" means only "The Wise".

Not γνoμη but γνώμη.
However very interesting information. Although I am greek I didn' t notice
the connection between those two words

Erm, yeah, sorry, for the misspelling ... I wouldn't have known where to put which accent one way or the other ;P (Hey haven't had Greek for more than half a year now! )

What coincidence! I too had it now for about half a year!

Tolkien did not mention pointed ears in the texts OFTEN simply because he wanted to make the effect that an Elf was Human-like in appearance, however maintained a degree of "light" to their skin and "fire" to their eyes, and grew to taller stature than men.

Tolkien did, however, mention in a few very small references that elves did have slightly pointed ears.

I believe he wanted to deviate from the idea that elves were small pixie-like beings with absurdly long ears and toes and fingers, sometimes with mostly odd facial features. To do this, he was forced to fully describe the race of Elves in his works as matching human appearance but of being greater in beauty and fairer in nature as well as being wise... and as a physical detail for the race to contrast with the race of men he made the Elves thin and taller than any man could be. Having their skin almost reflect ambient light in a not-so-obvious-but-obviously-noticeable manner as well as their eyes holding a degree of intensity uncommon to humans was a good manner of altering the prior concept that elves were short little pixie-like beings.

It also in a method brings to mind the Nephilim of ancient tales... the giants of supernatural origin walking the Earth as Men fear them...

-- D

Nephilim? Where did that legend originate from?

Also, this is off-topic from Elves and their respective ears, but in an ancient poem called Caedmon's (sp??) Hymn (which dates back to around roughly 400 AD) in it the singer makes referance to 'middangeard' which is OLD English for Middle-Earth. So it is interesting to see where Tolkien got his influences...

A little history lesson...

Caedmon was an "English" poet from the early Middle Ages, but his poetry is dated from a little later than you point out (he died at about 680 AD, don't remember the exact date). He was somewhat of a saint (I don't know if he is recognised as one nowadays) and wrote religious poems: the one you point out here is his most famous work.

BTW, Ancalagon, are you interested in Anglo-Saxon mithology? Had I know before, I could have PMed you for help in the exam I had to pass last year...

If you want to know about what influenced Tolkien to create Middle-Earth, you may want to read Tolkien's ring, by David Day (I think). It's a book worth the reading. I first discovered it when I was in Northern Ireland, and read it thrice there; after I came back to Spain I promptly bought it

Hm.. Cause i am a german LotR fan, i own the german version of LotR.
Its a newer Translation, and there is a comment by the translator (Wolfgang Krege)
about the translation. There he sais that Tolkien helped the first translator who translated LotR into german (Margaret Carroux) in finding german names for his english ones. So e.g. the Shire in german is "Das Auenland" and Elves "Elben".
It is said that Tolkien found the english word "elves" to be awkward and that the german word "Elben" would better suit his impression of elves. So he surely wanted to deviate them from pixies or fairies or whatsoever has pointed ears. And reading the Silmarillion I got the impresseion that elves and men were almost equal in appearence as they all were the children of Eru. I dont think that elves have pointed ears and in my imagination of Tolkiens world they never had.
That was until I saw the movies...

For all fluent in german, here is the german text passage:

"Zu dem Wort Elben zum Beispiel - das sich heute so natürlich anhört, als hätte man es schon immer gekannt - hat er der Übersetzerin den etymologischen Hinweis gegeben. Im Englischen musste er mit dem peinlichen Elves, "Elfen" auskommen."

Perhaps some of the early illustraters (SP?) had them with pointy ears. Just a thought....

What do you mean by 'Early Illustrators'?

Also, look at the date the last post was.
Good thing there isn't such a thing as thread necromancy in this area of the forums...

The question isn't whether that balrog had wings but whether that second quote is referring to physical wings or just it's wings of shadow.

I think he had "only" wings out of flame and shadow.
Otherwise he could have flewn.

yeah well but don't take the film as a reference...
who says that the abyss wasn't bigger?
well and on top of the mountain he could have flewn
all around Gandalf with the result of gandalf having not a tiny chance
against him...



doesn't really matter, does it?

cu

Look at this page

I think the first quote is quite clear. And the mere fact that he says elvish and not elven shows that he refers to 'his' elves and not to the traditional mythical creatures. That's probably also the reason why he uses the quotation marks: it's not a real word.