Do you belive we in the free world, no matter what country you live in, are actually free?

For instance in America people have a right to bear arms, own a gun, and if they have a permit, they can use it anywhere to "defend" themselves with deadly force.

For instance in america you cant smoke in a bar ( pub to you english gents ) in some states, but you can drink till you get poofaced drunk, drive home and die.

For instance in america rich dumbass corporate CEO's are in charge of the goverment. Not people like you and I. All i need to say is %&$! cheney, you'll understand.

BUT for instance I can buy a pack of ciggerettes, a case of beer, an ounce of weed, a gram of cocaine, a gram of heroin, a gram of meth, Do it all up, shoot 10 people and not get the death penalty, because my state doesnt mandate it.

I am An american, and i guess the question i am trying to ask is, if you live in free country, no matter what country it is, if you feel it is free explain why, or why not you are free.

I belive that As an american i am still in one of the freest countrys in the world. if i dont break the law i can really do what ever the hell i want when i want where i want how i want to who i want. with out having to explain myself.

My issue is the media. which gives me another idea for a topic here......

Once upon a time we were more free than now. You are only free to do what 'they' allow. Yes, the 'Law' says you can carry a gun. But just try to carry one down the street and see how quickly a cop shows up to say you can't carry it 'here'.

When I was in High School, I would guess that at any given time half of the cars in the parking lot, both students and teachers had a gun in them. Most were hunting guns, but pistols were not uncommon. Many of these guns were prominently displayed in the back windows of pickup trucks. We no longer have that freedom. If you are seen within a mile of a school with a gun you are automatically branded a 'terrorist'.

As to the rest of the world, well, people are still risking death to get into the US. There must be a reason.

Freedom and the concept therein is a flux and fickle mistress. There must be a balance in freedom and safety of the whole. That is when the constitution "usually" is given its most conservative interpretations...to protect a group freedom and safety over the individual. As we know our system that gives us freedom can often be used to manipulate it (as recent examples can be shown.)

Americans can be as free as they wish to be. However to have more freedom we must give up safety. Or we can be safe from terror, crime, etc at the expense of individual freedom.

I am of the thought that freedoms greatest protector is the educated citizen. Freedom is taken away from people when they either don't know it or don't have the information to understand.

Today is a primary election in my home State of West Virginia. I am voting even if I don't think it makes a difference at this point. I have read, listened, studied etc as best as I can. I have used the media but this is not all I use. People MUST become educated to their world. Read, debate etc. Exercise your freedoms to get the knowledge you need to protect yourself and your freedoms. If you have a belief then great, but be able to say I belive this BECAUSE of...not that it is just spoon fed to you via the media, parents, community, etc. It is lack of knowledge that makes us scared and lash out at different things.

Also one must remember that every freedom given will eventually infringe on another. A balance must be struck, a compromise made (as our forefathers intended) and there must be give and take. If we can all remember this and accept this we can live in a world with more freedoms and rights than we can shake a stick at! It will never be perfect but it can be beautiful.

As for America sharing its freedom with the world. The concept itself is innocent enough. However each people and person must choose their own path. Freedom and democracy is NOT the same thing. Despite most Americans belief we are not a TRUE democracy. America is a REPUBLIC. Rarely do we vote for a law directly. We vote for representatives to vote for the community belief. Democracy is NOT always interchagable. with freedom. My vision of freedom is not the same as yours and to attempt for whatever reson to enforce your vision onto someone else is to take away the right of another. We must be careful to make sure that the hand we hold out to the world is not the one that eventually beats it down!

But to talk, dream and debate is good for us as a people and that is the ultimate freedom that America has. Its restrictions are not governmental but society based. I don't worry about political correctness which is laughable. I was raised to be RESPECTFUL of others. When you have true respect then you don't need to be "politically correct."

I believe we can make things better but must start with ourselves. Start as an individual and work your way out to your family, community, state and nation.

To paraphrase Robert Kennedy
I see what is and ask why. I dream of what could be and ask, why not.


Now...I step off the soap box to let another come up...

All I thought to say here isn't necessary anymore, you said it all, Lisnpuppy and to us is just good 'to listen' what you said. Your words are universal, they are valid to all of us, in all countries.

Nosisab,

Thank you for your kind words. This was just my humble opinion. Far be it from me that has seen so little proclaim to know so much.
I love this forum because it gives me the opportunity to talk and discuss things with people from places I would otherwise maybe not get to do.
I love my country and its system, but it is not infallible. And when the system breaks we as citizens have no one to blame but ourselves.
Each free person (no matter where they are) is the guardian of freedom and we MUST hold those in power accountable for when those freedoms are sullied.

Please feel free to put anything up you want. I am sure not to have said it all and am always ready to learn from others.


Yours,
Lisa

If I could I would but you really condensed the principles that must guide us when measuring between what we can and what we must.

I also belive that, in the world, many countrys are not free. Corruption, everywhere, even here, people dont have the balls to stand up and say hey! As the majority We want this to change!

the problemi see with the people of the earth, all country's andall nations is that those who do most of the work, the ones that support the goverment by paying taxes, the ones who work for 25 cents a day, get there voices shut out by corporate dollars.

What happened to American made? ( if your an american you'll know what i mean) What happened to all of that? 80% of the toys i buyt for my childeren are made in china. My goverment in the last 30 years or so has sold out to the cheapest bidder and sacrificed our Economic value, you all know whats going on in America.

No offense to china, i love the culture there and what not.

Speaking of China.....Yet another Debate topic.

Money and power have always tried and often been successful in drowning out those weaker. However it takes 2 people to be a doormat. One to walk and one to get walked UPON. Things are not that different than they have been throughout history. People must make a choice to act. Each individual must decide what and how much to do to secure their freedom. One alone can not make the change, but one alone can start it.

this may be harsh , But people need to quit running like rats to the crums and act like mankind should, with a loud voice, start speaking about what they desire. cause a little chaos, a little disorder. Rework our goverments and redifine who our leaders should be. I dont mean start killing, because that goes on all the time anyway. We are so used to it, chaos and disorder would be to stop killing each other and get along, elect people, not politicians. Get rid of our weapons and live in peace. And i dont say america, i say the entire world down to the last person. in only that way could it happen. And only then could we actually be totally free, within the boundries of what can be considered, Laws morals, ect ect ect.

A leader is not a leader, without his followers.

Freedom is a myth, a sentiment, a club that politicians, big business, admen, and other monomaniacs, use to beat us over the head with. Everywhere in the world. To get us to accept and conform to their view of the material world. Every power hungry creep of what ever political, religious, whatever, hue always uses the buzz word, Freedom.

It is a word used to blind us to the fact that there are so many 'events' happening at every level of our lives over which we have no control, and over which we can never have control. The best one can do is to try to look clearly at one's own life and to try to live that life in as righteous ( not a religious monopoly ) a way as is possible.

It will be painful. It will be joyful. But it will be yours to do, and only yours. What ever happens as a result of trying to live one's life that way might just approach some kind of approximation of 'freedom'.

i believe that the only laws we need are:

murder = death penalty

theft = jailtime

assault = jailtime + being assaulted yourself

i admit there would be a little chaos with my idea, but that would only be until people can learn to control themselves.

the country i live in (america,) as i see it is nothing short of crap. (well, the land is nice, just not the government.) nobody should be able to tell anybody what to do, aside from basic things like: dont kill people, dont steal crap, and dont hurt anybody.

where i live, there are so many stupid "little" laws that anger me to no end. one being that the government can take your land at any time without notice, as long as they "fairly compensate" you. so in effect, that makes the land you own not yours.
with this new "patriot act" did you know that if you are not pro globalization, you are considered a terrorist?

i just have many thoughts about this country that i cannot let out, because of fear of being locked up for being a "terrorist." what ever happened to the right to put down your government if it was not working out?

I agree we should shake things up in America but not chaos, it needs to be organized & I believe term limits for politicians & getting rid of their special retirement plans is a good start.
Make them have to live under the laws that they pass & with social security like most everyone else, then you would see real change.


This is just way too naive, if you get rid (assuming you actually could) of all the weapons people would just make their own like clubs, swords bows & arrows. People didn’t have more freedom before them, why do you think they will if you could get rid of them? Guns are a great equalizer, take them away from the old & helpless and you create more victims.


Wrong…a good leader leads whether anyone follows or not, they do the right thing even when no one is looking.



I’ll 2nd that; the pendulum has swung too far in many cases, but I think we need to put down the politicians, not the government.

I agree with Chesto in a fashion, for if (as Linspuppy states) the educated man can ably defend the concept of freedom so can he easily pervert it to his personal motives. You've heard certain presidents mention the word far too many times in far too many speeches and why? Not as a concept or an ideal, but as a means to an end like a bullet in the chamber. An appropriate comparison considering I seem to hear "freedom" more in these times of war than I ever heard in times of peace. Americans had a chance to (peacefully) fight for freedom during the scandal of the 2000 election, but didn't then ended up in a real fight after lives were lost in the 2001 terror attacks. It shows that we can and will take our general liberties for granted until blood stains our doorsteps.

And that's an ironic truth. Freedom can be used as a tool, much like the promise of lower taxes and higher wages, to shackle the citizenry.

I agree that freedon can (and has) been used as the carrot hung in front while the whip is used from behind. And that those with intelligence can use the concept to pervert and destroy. However the educated person is the only person with a true chance of seeing through the lies and having hopes of changing things. It is well known from history that most revolutions and revolts come when people are BETTER off that before..when they are MORE literate and MORE educated.
That is why those in power have not and still don't wish to have an educated population. Keep them dumb and stupid and they will be two busy to figure out the shenanigans that are going on around them.
A perfect example is the French Revolution. Most people think the peasants were in a much more horrible state than they were. In fact at the time less people were suffering from starvation, the literacy rate in France at the time was higher than in the US today, and there was like 3 people in the Bastille because the KING was shutting it down.

So whatever your views of freedom....being educated and having the most access to information will give you more power over your fate that any other thing you can have. It is also (especially now in the computer age) more accessable than ever and you probably have a better change aquiring education and information than any other comodity.

The Bene Gesserit (I think most here knows the Dune universe from Frank Herbert) have a saying

All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted.
Missionara Protectiva,
Text QIV (decto)
Chapterhouse: Dune

and too:
Give me the judgment of balanced minds in preference to laws every time. Codes and manuals create patterned behavior. All patterned behavior tends to go unquestioned, gathering destructive momentum.
Darwi Odrade
Chapterhouse: Dune

We see the first happening now and ever while the second is almost never used.
Fiction sometimes carries more of the reality than it itself.
Maybe we can't be totally free, maybe freedom is more a concept than a feature, yet we must fight to have and keep all of it we can.

That freedom and security are mutually exclusive is the big lie of modern American politics. In truth, if one is diminished, the other is diminished as well. "Exchanging freedom for security" is an excuse made up by cowards for situations where they're really giving up both.

To what I refer are things like search and seizure without warrant, wiretapping, etc without warrants in the name of "security"
The government as it stands in the US at present has and is infringing on civil liberty and freedom of the American people by using fear to cirvumvent the Constitution.

Is it this concept that you disagree, or am I being a "coward?"

I have many different views i guess that go with my moods, Does that make me insane? Or saner?

anyway, another thought on freedom, as long as i keep the beurocratic bull out of my daily life, have a job, make money, pay my taxes, dont blow up anything or kill anyone, ( hard to do for me......video games luv em.), i can buy what i want, go where i want ( if i get a visa elswhere ) get crapfaced drunk, smoke ciggerettes ( outside which is fine by me ) or whatever else i want, within the bounderies of the law, that was written to protect me , and you, from each other. There was a time when i stole stuff, or wanted to kill someone, or did drugs. What the Law was written for is immature people, I know and some of you know, its not okay to kill someone. If it was the world would be alot quiter.

So aside from the various ways you can steal from someone ( petty theft to corporate embezlment), or murder someone, ( drunk driving death, to Mass muder ), or the variaty of drugs, the only other laws you can break are traffic laws, and imposing your will upon someone by force and/or a con. The law is written so crazy there are so many problems with it, people do suffer because of it, whether it be an innocent man in prison, or a victim of crime. ( in the extreme circumstance there are other laws you can break. )

In order to have order we need a system to follow that guides us along a path of what the majority believes is right and moral, even though our laws can be messed up, they are not to the point of needing a total reform. We just need to elect people, and not politicians, who suck up money to have sex with hookers or put there earmark on every bill they right.

And in my own personal opinion it seems to me that Barak Obama's wife wont let him step in the pile of poo that is politics, seems to me he might be a person. Maybe thee person to get us out of the crap the last administration put us in leading up to and following sept 11, 2001.

the sad thing is he has the Charisma and charm of JFK. And its scary to see the man run for office in the same damn circumstances he ran in. Lets just hope and pray that it works out. no matter who is elected. I fear for my country and those who live in it.

Yes, and you said these things are necessary to maintain the "balance in freedom and safety of the whole." I'm saying that they are diminishing both freedom and security at the same time, because there is no balance between the two.

Freedom as we know it is definitely an empty phrase, a myth, somewhat of a dream. since we've never actually achieved total freedom and liberty. We're bound by alsorts of laws, perhaps some are good but some are simply making life difficult for people and serve only the greedy wealthy elite class. I believe we should have the most basic laws in the world and never change them, a universal law that applies to everyone, and is fair to everyone. Treats everyone equally. We don't have that. So yes, freedom is a myth so far.
Because if we keep having amendments that suit to change constantly, subject to change then evil people can and will make up evil laws to control the masses and make life even worse for people.

Perhaps a new world government will not be a bad thing, but it will, because theres evil people out there who want a new world order to centralize a total control and dictatorship style control over the world. But if there was 1 world, and no governments or borders or "nations", just basic laws of the world, and the police were the general population who policed themselves. Not so called "police" who do not serve and protect, but only serve to rip us off with fines and wrongful imprisonment for stupid laws. Noone ruled over anyone else. and everyone was harmonous, that would be nice. Abit like the Shires in lord of the rings I guess. and then we have a council every few years to address major issues if there are any. Not political but natural ones. Since no government means no political divisions or issues to deal with. Only the people and nature. But people are too absorbed in their divisions and labels and they think they are better than other nations etc. It couldn't work yet. People, human nature is too corrupt.
Perhaps we need a fresh start, a major event to bring us all back to stoneage and start again..world war 3 perhaps?

To deal with criminals, would just be "whatever someone does to you, do to them equal measure" all the religions say the same thing also. Known as the golden rule.

People need to take control and do what is right and stop letting the greedy elitist bankers and money owners control us with ridiculous laws that only infringe on our personnel freedom.

I read a lot of 'treatment' of symptoms on this thread, but, with a few exceptions, very little about dealing with the lack of 'freedom'. And the fact that so many speak of what to do to get ' freedom', indicates that we aint 'free'.

Say again: if one hasn't found freedom within oneself, then all that is happening is that the walls of ones cell are getting a new paint job.

Freedom is another method of state control. (state as in country, not federal thingy by the way - yes, I'm English!)

The government tells you "Hey guys, our country is great, you're free!"
Most people say "oh cool, this is true, I can choose what colour car I drive, or where I work, or where I live etc etc"

I say different.

By saying you're free, the government is trying to make you happy. Happy people don't start revolutions! (an extreme example I know, but happy don't vote for someone else isn't quite as snappy)

But this doesn't address the issue of whether you're atually free. The government could (shock horror) be telling the truth. So what constitutes freedom?

A lot of people would say freedom of speech - fair enough. But we don't have it. You can't run down the street calling people racist names, or being generally abusive. Therefore there is not true freedom of speech. This would seem to me to be a good thing - I can't invisage the world being a better place if people were allowed to do this. Does this mean that actually, freedom is a bad thing?

This would lead on to further arguments - are people essentially good, moral people and therefore, if given freedom, could they be trusted not to abuse it?
Or are people actually born good or bad, in which case freedom of everything wouldn't be a good thing, as the bad people could do what they wanted.. In which case we could limit freedom to the good people? Oh, wait, that's not freedom..that's persecution

If we allow everyone total freedom, does this mean anarchy? Because as soon as you start adding laws, then people are no longer free..

Freedom is a good abstract concept, but unless humans were definitely not going to abuse it, it seems to me to actually be a danger..

That may be a complete ramble =D

"Freedom" is a weird word here in Italy. I'd need an entire thread to explain what's happening here, but i'll try to be schematic.

The actual majority on the government is called "Popolo delle libertà" (People of fredom) led by Asphalt Head Silvio Berlusconi and it's on the right. The opposition is... oh, uhmm... well... There's NO opposition! except for the only honest politician in italy, Antonio di Pietro and his "Italia dei Valori" party. (5% of voters, and i'm with them)

What's happening here? Left and right are allied against true journalists, bloggers, writers. The "official" information is led by parties, who drop their own men into the tv to tell lies and hiding the truth about corruption, organized criminality into the politics; We have something like 70 politicians in parliament who have problems with justice, some of them are condemned already.

What people know about this subject is almost nothing. Real journalists cannot speak in tv, only through the web, and the tv-addicted people are so addicted that they agree with the attacks against real information, and they really think that our premier is an honest and nice person. (he's the most troubled with the law) They are not used to be informed, they have molten brains by watching reality shows, talk shows, dancing girls and false information on tv.

There are honest people and real journalists of course, but as i said, they are banned from tv. Two great journalists like Enzo Biagi and Indro Montanelli (Biagi gave the announcement of liberation from nazifascism on the radio in 1943) were banned from tv some years ago, and they died almost alone, forgotten. More writers and journalists have a strong action through the web, but it's still David against Goliah.

We are a "Sweet dictatorship"

Though I admit that things can always be better...when I see information like what Delphinus states I am reminded again that in America it is much better...at least from the freedom of speech and press...etc.

Also to clarify and earlier post (directed to MarxistBastard) I believe that if the American people wanted to be completely (well almost) safe then it could be done....at the great expense of personal liberty. Very much like 1984

I personally would not want this. I would think this is exactly what a terrorist of any kind would wish to happen. For Americans to be so scared that they would give up their civil liberties.



It has been very easy of late to let these civil liberties go by the wayside in order to as the government (especially extreme right) would say protect the population. Some things seem so minor and insignificant (and may be in truth) that most people are willing to let them slide. The we have the extreme left (like the ACLU) which sometimes fights things that many people feel are silly or insignificant. Personally I belive that not one single freedom, right and liberty should be given in exchange for ANYTHING including safety. It is that one small, seemingly insignificant step that starts the slippery slide downward to oppression. Who is to judge what rights, liberties and freedoms are able to be given justifiably away in the name of another thing? Every one of us (obviously) would say different.

Yet as bad as it may be at times (and some of your post sadden me in their cynicism-though I admit to being an idealist at times) we (in the US) are the most free in the concept of civil liberty and the ideas set forth in the BIll of Rights. Simply look at China or what Delfinus say sof his country Italy. WE have rights to say what we wish no matter how stupid it may be.

And someone commented that people are not allowed to run down the street saying racist things. I disagree. Maybe in the "political correctness" sense or on moral grounds it would be ostrisized. But I live in West VIrginia. There is still a great deal of prejudice here. And the Klan and Neo-Nazis are alive and well and are free (and have been) to take to the streets spew what vile they may.

As was once said, I may disagree with what you are saying but I will defend to the death the right for you to say it. We have these rights that are inalienable. I say it can be better and I say that if the population is educated and active that a true and good balance of freedom can be achieved. But it can not be done without the citizens. Civil disobediance if needed. But to simply say that we do not have freedom, that it is a construct to control the masses is a waste of time. Is it easy to protect freedom and libery=ty? Is it easy to gain freedom and liberty? No and it should not be. But it can be done.


(please excuse spelling errors--it is late!)

Total freedom will never be possible when more than one is involved being aways a goodness.
Where a society is on account it will be the interval between the things we can do against the others we must do.

In a ideal world that should be enough, but as the things are, the laws will address the "can not"s and "must not"s and with this will be repressive instead orienting. As for me I'll judge the things by what they are, not just and ever because of an human law, for it's interpretation of rights isn't aways the justice.

PS: Is true the government is the predominant factor at judging a people freedom, as it is articulated and organized. And breaking the status quo is never a trivial thing. By the other side if the people don't get a way to make it's voice be heard, there are little hopes they will be helped by others.

Good old Voltaire

I totally agree - an educated, respectful populace would mean greater freedom is possible. I also agree with what you said about terrorists et al, the worst thing they can take away is your freedom - and for governemnts to try and combat this by...yes that's right, taking away your freedom seems somewhat ironic?

I don't know what it's like in the US, but I can't imagine it's much better than in Britain - it's illegal for a group of more than 3 people to meet up after half seven in the evening, unless they have permission from the Police. The Police can enter your house, arrest you, hold you for 36 hours, interview you, deny you a lawyer and even deny you a phone call on the suspicion you may have done something wrong. They don't have to have proof. The laws enabling this were passed without a referendum and without advertisment to the population.

This seems to me to be a complete travesty of what my grandfather died in the second world war for, and frankly it makes me sick to think about this, and the apathy with which it's accepted.

This was done so we can 'maintain our freedom', presumably from terrorists etc. What can we do to maintain our freedom from the government? It looks to me as if all the extremists should pack their bags and go home - they've brought down the freedom we used to enjoy in the west.

And don't get me started on the fact that the government doesn't even have a majority

I would suggest that you read that book. It's very different from what you apparently think it is.

Besides, you haven't responded to my point in an way. All you've delivered is dull, pointless rhetoric. Freedom and safety aren't mutually exclusive concepts. If you take away enough of a man's freedoms, you eventually take away his ability to defend himself. Give him more freedoms than those who intend to assault him, and those assaults will be only minor annoyances. Prove this wrong, or admit that you only believe in the "balance in freedom and safety of the whole" because it's been shouted in your face since birth.

First of all, I have read 1984 many times.
Do NOT patronize me.

If you find my postings dull and pointless than I would suggest that you simply skip reading them. I donot post them for your individual enjoyment.

In 1984 the populace is monitored constantly. This is to what I am referring.

And to prove you wrong is a bit difficult when we are debating (and I use this term loosely in your case as you seem to wish only to antagonize and not engage in constructive and informative debate--I believe you called me a coward already) an abstract concept. Freedom probably means something different to all of us.

And since you do not know me I doubt you know what has been "shouted in my face" since birth.

Can you be free if you are not safe? No you probably can't because fear itself provides its own prison. And if you are safe because your freedoms are taken away then

However when you use things like the Patriot Act which takes away the civil liberties and freedom of the individula and uses it to "protect" the populace is no less of a prison. You can not single out specific people to protect one from and as such must infringe upon all persons. I personally see no other way to prevent the misuse of such things than to stand firm and keep safe the civil liberties.

I realize that practically all freedoms will at some time be restricted for the good of the whole (as I believe I stated) and sometime I agree and sometimes I do not. However I belive that attempting this balance is the best way to keep freedom and still have society protected. When I do not agree I take action and protest, vote, etc as is my right. For example...having child molesters report their presence in a community. Some say that this restricts personal liberty and freedom. The right to privacy is violated (murderers do not have to do this) said person has served their time, etc. The law restricts the freedom as it sees tha danger the individual presents as greater than the loss of a personal freedom. Some may agree some may not. I see this as a way the balance of the system works. Alternately the law allows freedom of speech and in my very own State it is not unheard for the KKK or other groups to march or speek. Many people would like to not allow these groups to have their free speech. To infringe on the right to say the thigns they do. Bu tthe Constitution protects this right as the danger to society is not seen to outweigh the right of free speech.


However I stand by my opinion that if Americans wished to be safe from the "threats" to which the current administration has been addressing then it can be done if everyone is monitored, watched, freedoms set forth in the Bill of Rights are abolished and so forth.

I do not believe that carrying a bigger stick would solve the issue. Each freedom that is given one will infringe upon another. I do not beleive in vigilatism.

Let's try to keep the attacks on the topic and not individuals responses, everyone has a point of view that has merit and adds to the discussion. Pointed attacks are counter productive to the discussion and will result in the topic being closed.

Review your posts and see if this applies to you.

I would not like to have to give warnings or worse over a topic that is interesting and thought provoking in nature.

Buddah

Just what i wanted to say... Even if i am strongly against certain american politics, involving the world in useless wars, wasting the natural resources without a reasonable limit etc. I must bow down in front of american journalism and information. The best service i have ever seen about what i said earlier is made by an american tv program called Wide Angle (the service is "who is Silvio Berlusconi") and the best article on real situation of italians was made a few months ago by the New York Times.

Information is the base of freedom in modern countries; today, if you wanna rule a country as a dictator you don't need tanks and an army at your service... the TV do the work better, and in a more subtle and clean way.




Yet another good point. I agree that the safety of a country is essential for liberty, but i also never forget that an unsafe situation could be planned by a government, in order to keep liberty under strict control, and this will probably work, giving the government a strong support from the population. Collective fear against a public enemy is a good chance for a "Sweet dictatorship". In italy happened several times, and i'm sure many of you american friends had the same suspect about some facts happened in the last few years...

In that case, you should be well aware that in the setting of that book, the classes of society which enjoy the fewest freedoms are also the least safe, and the classes which have the most freedoms practically have an entire society engineered to protect them. I don't see any person in the novel who is "completely safe... at the great expense of personal liberty."


I just love how you couldn't complete that thought. Is it because there is no situation where you're safe because your freedoms have been taken away?

really, if you think about it, nobody is ever safe. someone can just walk up and shoot you in the face, and there is nothing you can do about it. you just trust that that someone wont walk up and blow your brains all over the person standing behind you.
someone could break into your house at any time, and there is nothing you can do about it.
i can go on like this all day. even the government can steal your stuff. the only thing that is stopping them is... well, NOTHING AT ALL.

there is really no reason to have all of these unnecessary rules that "take away" your personal freedom. you can always do as you please. just dont get caught doing as you please and everything is golden.
why people wish to restrict others is beyond me. since when has anything i do hurt anybody else? never, thats when. one of my theories behind these useless rules is that people just want to control others. why do we let them? because people are ignorant of what they can have. they have been brainwashed by their parents, and them by theirs, that doing what you are told is a good thing. why? because they could.

Evilkoal,

I don't necessarily disagree with what you say at a fundamental level. And I am against most civil liberties being infringed upon in the name of general safety. Especially in the current sense of the Bush Administration. However, even if all of us were armed to the teeth there would still be those who could not protect themselves. The government in the United States tried to set forth what I believe to be a balance of civil liberty and the protection and care of its citizenry.

WE the people in order to form a more perfect union, estabilish justice and insure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, insure the trappings of liberty to ourselves and our prosterity we ordain and establish this Constitution... (not a direct quote so dont get bent out of shape people...)

The most important way to keep the balance and keep civil liberty and freedom is right at the beginning of that sentence.. We the people...

so as I stated from the beginning an educated and active citizenry is the most effetive way to protect freedom. It would be nice if it was a perfect world and no one would do bad things and we could all do as we liked. But its not. It is unfair that those of us with common sense have to be restricted in some ways. Laws have changed with the times and will continue to do so as will our ideas of freedom. Until then I think the thing we have going in the U.S. while far from perfect (way far! ) is the best thing we have.

My ideas are far different from my parent who grew up in the mist of the Second World War and VERY different from my grandparents whom fought in said war. I respect them very much but times they are a changing. To me there is no better time to be active in government and instead of simply saying that is how it is, we are weak and have no power...is to go GET IT. However you believe and in whatever go out and DO SOMETHING. Be active, interested and proactive. It is WE the people!!

exactly lisn. that something though is a debate amongst people. i believe that something is a full scale revolution, but others disagree with me.

Evilkoal:

I may not agree...but debate is good and paying attention and caring enough to try to change things is better. Being able to voice your opinions as we are doing here..talking of revolutions without having the man bust down our door is freedom. It ain't perfect but its a fine start!

it WAS quite a fine start.
then the government passed the "patriot act"