If I remember correctly orcs have a will of their own, and if their master(s) aren't near they do what they want. So they are living things and a race as are Elves, Men etc. So the question is what happens to them after their death. We know that elves go to the halls of Mandos, and that they are bound to Arda till the Words end. And we know that men leave the confines of this world behind after their death. But I dont know for sure where they go, maybe to the halls of Ilúvatar. From where they join to the second music and the re-making of the world. Maiar and Valar join that music too. And hobbits are some sub-race of men so I believe they have the same fate as men. Dwarfs believe that they have a place in the second music too, and their co-maker Aule has prepared a place for them to wait for its coming. So everything has their place. But where do orcs fit?

The Silmarillion states that Orcs were bred from captured elves. So do Orcs go to the halls of Mandos too. That doesn't sound right to me, but it is a good theory. And following this line of logic where goes the Uruk-hai after leaving the living world. They were born from the cross breeding of Orcs and Men right? Are they like half-elves. Do they get to choose their wating place?

From elsewhere (don't remember from where) I've read that Orcs were actually bred from captured Men. This would make things much easier becouse then they and all of their sub-races would just leave Eä, like men do.

Or could they just be cast to the void after their death with their master(s)?

Im just taking wild guesses here. So what do you guys think?

PS. I have only read the Silmarillion, LotR and the unfinished tales. So if there is some info about these things in some other books and someone has that knowledge please enlighten me.

They are cast into the abyss, or the void, with their masters. Since they are Orcs, one of the most accursed abomination ever to see the light of day (or not) created by Morgoth, they share the same fate with their Dark Masters...yeah...

So much for there ever being a 'good orc' eh?

Ok I see your point. But still isn't it said that Melkor or Morgoth couldn't create anything compeletely of his own not at least with free will. So he perverted the creation of Ilúvatar. They are bred from a previously normal elve or man. So they still are somehow Ilúvatars creation. I just want to know if you know that for a fact (tolkiens own written word) or is that just your personal POV. I don't think it would be even fair (supposing that they (orcs) even have spirits or souls like other races do) that they are just cast in to the void. I mean orginaly they didn't choose to serve the dark lord(s), but he made them do so. So what then happens to the spirits of those men who too served Sauron or Morgoth. In my understanding they still have the same fate that other men. But than again it is said that live isn't fair (life is a bich), so why should death be any different.

I am not wholly certain Tolkien ever specified what happens to Orcs (regardless that they were once Elves) after they die. I am sure they don't go to The Halls of Mandos, but since they are a perversion of the Elves (which is the most hatefull thing Melkor did in the eyes of Eru) I would think they all share the same fate as their Evil Masters. As far as Men go, I have no idea, since no one, save Eru, knows where Men go after they die. They don't go to Mandos, but they go elsewhere, yet it is never said.

That was probably the only thing I didn't like about Tolkien: Orcs are just plain evil from the beginning, don't have any choice, they are just the way they are. I never liked it when someone assumed that someone was evil or good from the beginning. If you are evil or good is not a matter of your origin, but of your choice. So if Tolkien's works would be more realistic, there should be at least some good orcs. With men it is realistic, there are both good and bad men. But orcs are just all evil, evil, evil. I somewhat pity the orcs, because they can't choose the way they want to live. Is it an orcs fault that he was created the way he is? Tolkien took away the free will of the orcs. I think the only races which have really a free will are men, elves, hobbits, dwarves and ainur (probably also ents), because at those races there are some good and some bad. But orcs (and every orcish sub-race), trolls and dragons are just bad.

Orcs are twisted Avari, captured since the awakening of the Elves.

This means that the elves that were corrupted by Morgoth were the elves that made the decision not to believe the Valar's proposal and not to begin the journey to Aman.

Orcs are therefore generally the elves that "screwed up" their chance to go to Aman, and were subsequently captured by Morgoth and his creatures and tormented and twisted into the foul beings they are.

-- D

I'm not an Tolkien expert but I think that Orcs indeed have a will of their own, they're just not smart enough to be "good", since their culture is all about fighting, killing etc and they're tought that they should be like that from the beginning of their life it's just natural for them. And the fact that they get killed on sight by any man/elf that sees them does make it easier for them to be "good" about trolls I think they're more like animals, a lion for instance isn't classed as "evil" just because it kills an antilope(sp?) or something like that, but it's their natural instinct the few trolls you see in the books (and Bilbo, I haven't read silmarilliion yet so I don't know if there are any there) are more like "classic fairy-tale" trolls (big and turns to stone while exposed to sunlight) while in the movie they're actually just big animals with a club.. so I actually think that Tolkien is realistic since in the Orc culture there is a deep hatred against mankind and vice versa which makes it just natural.

End of speech. :shifty:

1)Think about your source material. Tolkien wrote his books like a history. And history is written by winners. I do a lot of Military History work (it's my major). You read books from two different places about the same period, and you'd think you were reading about a two different wars. History is written by winners (or those who have hung heroes if you prefer), and Tolkien's works reflect that. It would be totally out of character to praise a good orc IF one did indeed exist. It would be like combing late Roman documents and finding one praising the Huns. Tolkien never writes the books like an "objective observer".


2)Orcs are evil in the books. You can feel bad for them, but they were created FOR evil. Don't think of them as "people", they weren't created like that. It's not like they evolved and became evil, it's just how they are "hardwired". Orcs are programmed to be evil. Think of them as sentiant tanks if that makes you feel better. Orcs have free will so far as it remains within their "programming", which is already set on "evil". Sorry to use a computer analogy, but it's the best I can do. If you aren't created with the ability to do "good" in the first place, you just can't. It's like me and foreign languages (and guess who has a Russian quiz tomorrow.)
Orcs are always evil because they were created to be evil.

As I see, it's like in Vampire the game from White Wolf, a friend of mine ask me why I gangrel have to be like a hippie animal lover . That's if you are a hippie animal lover gangrel and you want to embrace someone, you will embrace another one who will think like you and will follow the same "starndart".

I think also there can be some diferent individuals, but they are rare.

And if you compare with Gay people (I don't want to insult noone), if you are gay, you don't will say it if you are in the Inquisition times becase they will cut you in two pieces starting by the ass and ending in the head (that's real). I think it you are a "good" orc, you don't will say it because the will kill you XD.

Sorry for my english, I don't have time to correct it (Working)

That is my problem: You can't programm someone to be evil. You choose to be evil or good, you are not programmed to be good or evil. At least in reality it is that way. Orcs are intelligent and not just plain animals, or they couldn't react the way they do in the books (for example the orcs in TTT-chapter "The Urukhai" understand humour and have intelligence; also the orcs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol). I'm writing a novel just now and I'm including that no one is just bad or just good. I try to make it better than Tolkien

And yes, history is written, sadly, by the winners

Incorrect, Darnoc.

Orcs are the product of Morgoth's depravity. Actually lets go even further back.

When the elves awakened in the darkness, and The Hunter found them, the Valar offered to have the elves come live with them. Some of the elves believed the offer and gladly began a long journey many many miles to reach the home of the Valar.

HOWEVER, because Morgoth and his creatures had already roamed the darkness, and stolen away some of these elves in stealthy cover of terror and dark, some of these elves did not trust the Valar as he approached, and they fled in fear.

These elves that did not trust the offer of the Valar, and those elves that fled in fear, are the Avari. Their decision to be distrustful and fearful partially caused their downfall.

Morgoth took the Avari and tortured them. His methods were unspeakable, horrifying, and infused with the power of his angst and wrath. Remember, that up until a time later than this, Morgoth was *JUST* as powerful as Manwe, and instead of using his power to create something, he began using his power to twist and manipulate things already created into abominations. This means that the process of torture not only was physical, but (in Tolkien's definition of the word) also magical.

The product of this twisting of natures and DNA (if you will) and mental assault was the Orc. A spiteful, twisted, corrupt, angry, disgusting creation, exactly the opposite of the Elf.

This means that Elves are the ones who can choose to be good or bad, as in the case of Feanor and the Kinslaying. Orc's, however, do not have this capacity. Their bodies are twisted and almost constantly in a state of anguish, their minds are so filled with fear and hate that almost nothing can penetrate them, and only the dark Will of their creators and masters can direct them. If that power of dark "Will" was not present in them, they would scatter from a directed purpose into chaos and madness, filling their needs driven of fear and hate.

Servants of Morgoth retain a lesser form of his will to dominate, some to better degree than others. This allows Morgoth to distribute whole armies of Orcs to those of his servants that have the Will to command them. Lesser Will's may command smaller parties of Orcs.

What made the Uruk-hai so unique was the fact that Saruman, a Maiar of almost equal power to that of Sauron (also a Maia), cleverly devised a manner of not only emulating Morgoth (with his twisting of the elves into orcs) but SURPASSING this feat. Saruman emulated Morgoth by twisting and manipulating humans into depraved creatures, and then took these twisted humans and twisted elves and used his innate "Power" (magic, if you would use so loose a term) to combine these corrupted creations into one being. This made the Uruk-hai capable to some extent of free will, however the twisted nature of the orc and the manipulated twisted nature of the corrupted human were still an overwhelming presence.

The Uruk-hai of Saruman were able to use free will to a much greater extent than any other orc species before them... however they were still spiteful, evil, mean, corrupt, and STILL driven by the will of their master... although within that will they were able to exercise a degree of free will.

Anyway, I'm tired of explaining this and am going to enjoy some food and drink.

-- D

Thanks Daerk, I'm satisfied with your answer From this point of view, Orcs never had any free will. Poor orcs. Now I really pity them, can't even decide for themselves They never even got a chance. At least Morgoth got what he deserved in the end.

Now I also know why it says in the Silmarillion that Morgoth's most hateful work in the view of Eru Illuvatar was the creation of the orcs. Your post also explains to me, why Ugluk, Grishnak and the other Uruk-hais in TTT react different from other orcs (at least a little).

If I remember correctly Grishnak wasn't an Uruk-hai, but an orc of the Mordor-race.. Though I can be wrong..

Yes, sure Grishnákh was a Mordor orc. At least in the book he and his rag split from the Uruks a bit before the Rohirrim begin attacking them with arrows, but they come back again.

Yes, you are right, JesusGandalf. Grishnak was a Uruk of Mordor (sorry, my mistake). But Ugluk was a Uruk-hai and was probably the most intelligent orc of the books (at least I think, he was; the fact that he survided the longest of all Uruk-hais transporting Merry and Pippin and that had to be killed by Eomer personally speaks for him)

The fact of Uglúk being or not "the wisest of orcs" is very difficult to prove. First, because I doubt there are any wise orc out there in Middle-Earth. They are evil, but I doubt they are wise.

Second, because I think that maybe the wisest orc in LotR might be Shagrat, who was able to escape with Frodo's coat and Sam's sword and deliver them to Barad-Dur. At least Shagrat surely is the orc who caused most mischief...

OK, Shagrat did cause more mischief (I think for a moment there even Gandalf was flabbergasted, when he saw how the mouth of Sauron dropped Frodo's mailcoat). But Ugluk defenitly speaks more than Shagrat or Grishnak and he has some sense of humour (of course only black humour: The scene with the orcish medicine). He is also probably the most sensible of those bunch of orcs (he takes controll, he is realizing the threat of the riders of Eomer and gets his men moving; there are some more moments in the book, where he takes some sensible actions, at least for an orc, but I have to read the chapter again). But I wouldn't say that any orc was wise, but there were perhaps some orcs who were more intelligent than the other orcs (the leaders; that's probably also the reason, why they were leaders from the beginning). And as it is said somewhere in the book, the Uruk-hai were more like evil men than like other orcs.