What, in your opinion, are the most important aspects of a role-playing game?
(Also, if you feel like addressing it) Are current games designated as RPGs really such?


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Some attributes I consider important are:

-Rewarding players who use their character's attributes, skills, and personality to solve problems, rather than those who are simply skilled at shooting trouble.
-Giving logical approaches to problems logical results.
-Basing success off character skills, rather than the player's effectiveness at using the interface.

What type of rpg are you talking about? Tabletop? Computer? Console? Tactical? mmorpg? There are five types.
Tabletop rpgs focus on story line and character development with a very open ended nature. They typically have level-based systems with an inclination towards experience points.
Computer rpgs are traditionally based off of trpgs, especially D&D. While obviously not as open ended, they try to be as open ended as possible. crpgs tend to focus on quests, main quests and side quests. They also usually have a leveling system with experience points earned from quests and kills.
Console rpgs (also called Japanese rpgs as most are from there) have linear story lines and focus on inter character development. They almost alwyas have turn-based combat.
Tactical rpgs (also called strategy rpgs) are a combination of strategy games and rpg games. They often have the most basic of rpg elements, usually just skills/stats. Most have turn-based combat, but there are some with real-time combat.
mmorpgs have boring unintuitive combat, quests usually involving killing x amount of y for npc z, or going to place a to retrieve item b for npc z, and constant running back and forth.

In short, the main things all rpgs have is some sort of stat system, levels, and scripted quests.

I find this quite interesting subject.

To me roleplaying is when you can actually affect the enviroment, when the player can actually feel he can make any difference to the world, that is, his freedom of choices that will change how the game will develop. Roleplaying doesn't have to have 'experience', 'levels', 'swords'n magic' or to be medievalish. "Roleplaying game" as the original term comes from, the pen and paper boardgame, for example doesn't always have experience or levels for that matter and certainly not always happen in the medieval nor have swords.

Diablo for example is a title that was about as "roleplaying" as Monkey Island or Pacman in my honest opinion. You may have some "choices"; you can choose this room or that room to hack'n slash into a pulp but that is as deep as choosing which way to eat dots in pacman. Diablo had this typical "kill'n go next lvl" as the old arcade featured.

You falter. Your post is self-contradictory.

In most all games, you change things. In Resident Evil 0-3, you eradicate the T-Virus and destroy Raccoon City. That's a big change. With such a broad definition, almost anything can be considered an rpg. rpg gaes are identified by gameplay style, levels, etc.

You should understand that this is not a discussion what the dictionary definition what "RPG" is defined but what *you* find what makes an RPG a RPG. (I assume we're talking about CRPGs like Morrowind/Baldur's Gate/'Planescape torment' because RPG is the pen and paper version)
I support my definition with the argument that the original features from the old pen and paper roleplaying. This wouldn't be even a debate if we would just follow the dictionary/wiki definition of the word RPG.
Note also that I said "To me[...]"

I am though not sure if you were trying to not understand my point as simple as it was but what I meant was; if the player can *FEEL* he can change something, that he actually has a *CHOICE* how the game will develop. I haven't played Resident Evil but if you have a choice how the game will develop like you can decide if you walk away or destroy that city(and the world will react according what you choose) then that's a good roleplaying feature in my opinion. I am *not* saying --to eliminate misunderstanding-- that games that have something that change the world is a roleplaying game, all games have that feature, I am saying that you have to have a choice(and the game will develop differently if you do it, or if you don't do it)... I don't know if you've ever roleplayed but it's similar; you shape your own world, you can take your own actions, you're not bound to follow a linear development/story. Many games do have choice but no matter what you choose the same thing happens and it makes you feel like you can't change anything.

I don't see anything contradictory in my post. Feel free to support your statement with examples from my post.

I think you need to be able to state what an RPG is before you can say what it needs. There are many types of RPG's, and there are RPG's that are said to be the same genre, but are still totally different games. Take Baldur's Gate and Oblivion for example. Both are called cRPG's, but both are totally different.

I think that (Baldur's Gate like) RPG's should have choices and consequences (Big changes in the world can be cool, but if there's no alternative to this change it isn't as fun), characters have to 'grow' in time, through improved levels and/or skills preferably. There shouldn't be a lame levelling system like in Oblivion, which completely defeats the purpose of becoming stronger. Also player skill should play a small role compared to character skill.

Roleplaying isn't 'riding a horse and killing stuff', as Todd Howard once said, which is now the nr 1 dev quote when people are bashing Oblivion's 'RPGness'.

To me, an RPG is a game where you make a character, and you can use your imagination to "see" or "feel" what the character's situations are. Levels or no levels is irrelevant. AD&D, Rifts, etc have character levels. Shadowrun doesn't. Twilight 2000/Mercs 2000/Dark Conspiracy do not have character levels, but do have skill levels. All are RPG's. Now what I have seen of people's definitions of CRPG's is a lot looser than mine. For ex> Diablo to me, was NOT an RPG. You didn't "roll" up a character, you only had extremely limited choices for a class, etc etc. Baldur's Gate I/II & Icewind Dale I/II (as well as Planescape Torment), were, because through dialog, you could make choices that would affect how you were perceived ingame, or otherwise impacted the environment. There was still some imagination required to think what you wanted to do. Same with Neverwinter Nights I & II. Elder Scrolls Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion (can't say about the others, never played them) are also in the same category, despite the fact that the interface is through a 1st or 3rd person chase camera. You still have dialog, you still have choices that will impact more than just combat.

As you can tell, I am a big fan of being able to use my imagination, so I can have fun "seeing" the storyline unfold in a direction I am able to impact, not just be an actor in a train ride forcing me to do what the game wants. (*Whether computer OR tabletop*)

Which elements are important? ...Mass of characters,enemies,items,awesome magics,epic environment and most important AWESOME Story! ...that are elements which make RPG game perfect,well for me at least...

I understand what you mean, but we all have a kind-of the same idea what CRPG(computer role-playing game) is when people talk about CRPGs just like people kinda-of know what 'art' is even though you don't agree on the complete definition. Then again, just like art, we often have very different kind of idea what the definition is. The definition of CRPG on wiki is also very blur though it states that

What we are doing here is discussing this, some people think that [insert game here] is a CRPG because [insert argument here]. Like you say there are many different CRPGs and everyone don't agree who actually fall into that category. For example some people think Diablo is an CRPG while I don't think it is and I support my statement with arguments on that matter, it's that simple .

Also I don't think Baldur's Gate and Oblivion ain't that different in concept. It's both aimed for making the player feel he has freedom and his decisions can affect the game world. While Diablo you just go down a level and there's nothing you can do throughout the game that will change how the game will develop, not much unlike mario bros.

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LorodNyghthawk. I wholly agree with you. It's a big turn down to try to be roleplayish if the player or I am like you say is just It's kinda goes against everything Roleplaying stands for in my opinion.

I pretty much agree with Lord Nyghthawk here. An rpg is a game which lets you choose a role, and play it; hence the 'role playing game'.

So, an rpg is a game that lets you create a character of your own, and then drops you in a nice big world, where you can create your own story. Obviously most have detailed main stories, but they still allow you to flesh out your character, and play him/her as you like, affecting the rest of the world as you do so. If a game forces you into some preset mould, then it isn't an rpg.

EVE Online is an rpg for example, despite being an MMO. Why? Because it lets you create a character of your own, then drops you into a massive universe and leaves you to create your own story. You could play as a Gallentean trader, peacefully hauling goods between stations, or you could become a pirate, lurking at jumpgates and attacking anyone careless enough to come near. You can create your character how you like, and play them how you like. Obviously EVE is different because most of the other inhabitants of the world are controlled by real people, but the premise is fundamentally the same - it just makes things more realistic, as no-one can program a PC to act 100% like a human being.

What about JRPGs like Final Fantasy? Now while many people say those suck, they are still RPGs. Yet, they shove you into a mould with [almost] no choices.

To me, an RPG is anything were you can effect the environment, talk to people, by your own stuff, and on.....(In other words, anything even remotley like morrowind)

Well, as the word says, the rpg should be something that asks you to act a role, think like the character you are playing and so on. Unfortunately most people see in the RPG mainly the numbers, the points, the abilities, and videogames RPG are mostly based on these stats, except a few ones, like Morrowind or Oblivion, where you have a great freedom to act, visit, see, fight.

When i lead a roleplaying campaign "on board" i leave total freedom to my players in the creation of their character, and i try to create a world as original as possible myself, but i ask them to get into the role. many ppl aren't used to this, they don't like originality and they only care about stats and abilities, but there are others who appreciate, and so the real purpose (for me) of roleplaying can be satisfied.

PS: in my modest experience, i noticed a thing: The best roleplayer is the player who never played a RPG

I can believe that. People that are used to RPG are totally lost into the statistics part of the game; how to gain new items and moar lvlz-- in other words "Power-playing" which is usually strictly followed by metagame thinking. I notice this as well in various of roleplaying sessions I've been in. There are some who only care about the money, items and levels, the "is there any loot????" etc. These are usually the people who have been used to the crpg, or at least the new-genre crpg because those who have played the crpgs that I think are truly roleplaying like the "old-school" Baldur's Gate series, Planescape torment, Fallout series etc are the ones that are by far more superior roleplayers and understand the beauty of deep dialogs and storyline behind the game more than the new-genre "crpg" players.

A role playing game doesn’t necessarily mean “invent a role and play it”, it simply means “play a role”. Weather or not you have the freedom to choose your role is irrelevant.

Games like the Final Fantasy Series, Dragon Warrior Series, Neverwinter Nights, Baulder’s Gate – all of them are role play games. Some simply offer more choices, more quests / sub-quests, greater variety, better immersion, deeper story – and some offer less of these elements.

Table Top and LARPS (Live action role playing sessions for those who don’t know) probably originated the concept of “role playing”, then it matured from there. Just like the English language evolves with time (so by definition, “role play” will too), so will what it means for a game to be an “RPG”.

In a very broad category, the RPG games have some type of status (or character) leveling, that other games (action/adventure or FPS) just don’t have. Better items or deep storyline don’t define the RPG, but personal character status does (I.E. does the character get more health, improved strength, another “level”, etc).

Example:
The first Castlevania game was an action/adventure game, but Castlevania II: Simon's Quest, was an RPG. You got character "HP" levels in that game, along with shopping for items and a number of other things.
On the other hand, Kingpin: Life of Crime is 'not' an RPG game. Yes, you can get money and mod your weapons (thus improving their 'level' so to speak) but your character doesn't really develop any more (and by that I mean personal 'status' and not in character developement).

By this standard, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory counts as an RPG, rather than just an FPS with XP and levels.

Yeah? So? Hellgate:London is an rpg, yet it plays like an fps, too.

Let me put this to you guys - EVERY game ever made is an RPG. Why, you ask? Very simple - all games put you into the role or one or more characters. Some of you may not see it this way, but the fact is every character you play has a role, and you are playing that role. It all depends upon what kind of game the game developers want you to play - some roles are rather rigid, while others allow you to choose how you want to role play. That's just my 2.5¢

If you consider an rpg by the term 'roleplay', you're correct. However, roleplay and roleplaying game are different; they have different definitions. An rpg game is a specific genre of game. Now while some games might blur the lines (like Hellgate: London), they can still be discerned as one or the other. HG:L is an rpg because of it's stats, levels, weapon damage based on stats not human accuracy, etc.

Another game that blurred the lines many years ago was the old NES game "River City Ransom".

You were one of two "heros", beating the crap out of gang mambers, nabbing their dropped coins, and using said coins to shop. There were item shops for better equipment and food shops. Munching certain types of food improved certain types of status; strength or HP etc...

this game was probably clasified as an action/adventure game but you could save your progress so it 'may' fall into the RPG standard.

Also I've noticed that most RPG games (of the earlier generation) had save games, while action/adventure or puzzle games didn't - they had to be played through in one session. This doesn't apply to early PC games like Wolfenstien 3D where you could save after each level; it's merely a 'console' generalization.

Now however, just about every game lets you save so this princple won't stand up to games "post-SNES" era as I like to call it; games for the N64, Playstation etc. on up.

Haha... These discussions are funny. Everyone seem to pull a personal feature from a CRPG and claim it as the ultimate definition of CRPGs.



By this argument I could argue that a seahorse is a horse or 'the theory of evolution' is just a theory(but it's actually a large collection of facts and theories, mostly facts).
RPG*clicky* is the definition of the pen and paper roleplaying and from where the name is taken.


If it plays exactly like a FPS in all aspects, why isn't it? Because it surely in my opinion it doesn't play like an Role-playing game*clicky*

Even though statistic like 'levels' or "hp" are a feature in role-playing games it doesn't make them "roleplaying" just because they have it, just like an apple is a fruit doesn't make all fruit an apple.

I would say that an RPG is about "hard numbers" or in other words, harsh stats, heavy dialog and character creation, and some choices and consequences.

This is a total inversion of concepts... this were to be the last thing a RPG player need to concern. RPG as said before is performing, acting... being different from a cine or theater script just by such script not being fixed, instead it flows second the players actions.

Anyone that do something they would not to as normal is role playing, even when this is in the 'real life' ... look at people behavior, specially when they deal with the ones they dislikes or even hate, but are bound to social behavior and you will be seeing role playing.

So because I can kill aliens in Halo that makes it an RPG because I wouldn't do it in real-life? I don't believe that.

Plus most of the great RPGs like Eye of the Beholder, Ultima 4, and hell even Baldur's Gate, they were huge number crunchers if you get my drift.(Heavy on combat)

I hope you are kidding

But I can say this ... playing Hallo you are not playing RPG, but if you think you are killing aliens and you are the big guy there... so the answer is a big YES, you are, indeed.

as for numbers, and even dices in P&P RPGs, they are only to avoid things like: Hey, I shot you right in the head... no, your shot just give me a scratch.

CRPGs are limited in the choices the PC can do, and strive to hide at maximal the necessity of those numbers.

No offense but I think you should learn more English before you start criticizing my posts. You got everything I said backwards.

And, dice rolls don't avoid anything. They're there to mimic dodging and parrying and have proven to be quite realistic in combat as combat in real-life is based purely on chance anyways. (so is pretty much everything else but combat specifically)

Also, I never said that the numbers had to be apparent, I just said that they're what makes an RPG as well as choices and consequences. So I don't see why you're disputing my argument when you essentially agree that choices and consequences make an RPG.

As was already stated several times in this very topic... there are so much things that falls at the RPG cathegory

And in all of then, the only thing that can close it to the definition of RPG would be interpretation, performing a role... but the world is not ideal, systems and rules are need ever. So we have so many things we will interpret as being RPG, not all absolutely correct, nor absolutely wrong.

If you don't care to repeat what was said "several times" in this topic then don't reply at all. It's not as if someone is pointing a gun to your head and you certainly don't need to patronize.


And, if we are just going to accept that everyone has different views and leave it at that, then why have a discussion at all?

Also, like I said before RPGs are made up of heavy statistics as well as choices and consequences, I don't see why you're even arguing with me. You said it yourself that RPGs need choices and consequences. If you're disputing that they don't need heavy statistics then you're mistaken since that is what separates CRPGs and JRPGs from the twitch-play environment of FPS and other genres.

No genre besides the RPG genre has dice-roll combat with saving throws and d8s and stuff.

Don't take it as personal, please, I really didn't meant anyone in particular when gave my opinion. I meant the numbers were a necessary 'evil'

I'm not offended or anything, I'm just having a hard time understanding you.

As for Halo being an RPG, that's quite wrong. It's an FPS, just like the reviewers/Microsoft/Bungie says.

Anyway, things I've come to expect from an RPG:

-a large amount of useful dialogue usually conducive to furthering the plot and/or completing quests/missions
-a methodology to enhance your character be it XP grind, items which boost your stats, etc.
-areas designated as danger zones or dungeons
-a great degree of control over your character's actions w/relevant consequences
-a great degree of control over your character's growth

Character creation doesn't matter, it's just a good bonus. Dialogue ranks first on my list because I always expect to spend at least half the game talking (or more accurately, listening) to other characters be they NPCs or other PCs. This is mainly what seperates an RPG from other genres to me.

Funny, I think I remember starting a topic like this with RTS....

Anyhow, I think that the best RPG will be the computer version of D&D. And I'm talking about when they actually have Dungeon Masters. Of course, this will be in an era where the Dungeon Master can create mods so quickly he can generate worlds on the whims of the player. For example, if a player needs to break someone out of jail, the original program may have provided a stealthy manner in which to do so. But perhaps a player comes up with an ingenious plan which involves capturing many wild animals and setting them loose on the guards. The Dungeon Master would need to quickly make a mod which would allow them to do this. Admittedly, this may never happen.

if you mean, give me an hour quick it is already done, game is called never winter nights. Problem is the graphics, and the module maker.
in terms of Hardcore D&D, DM takes say a smoke break, works something out and it is done, that will probably never happen.

The things i look for in an RPG is content, if i have to wear one suit of armor all through the game i wont like it. If i cant go explore on my own and i haveto follow a linear story i wont like it.

Dont get me wrong i love All the classics, FF7-12, dragonquest 1-8, for example. To me those are great games, but to me they dont constitute an RPG. They constitute what a Virtual Novel or Novella ( short one ) to me because i am not actually making my character from scrath.

So with that being said, Obviously you know my favorite RPG of all time is this one. Oblivion. Hands down people can create stuff and add it to the game. Thats also a plus in my book but not a requirment. Graphics dont have to be Super great either.

And the ultimate Pen and PaPer game to me was ADVANCED D&D 2nd edition, none of this Wizards of the coast crap they put you kids through nowadays.

In an RPG i want to fell i am the character, if i want to jump off a cliff and die i can do it in oblivion. With the help of some mods i can do some pretty crazy, erotic, and bloody things.

So with that said my new standerd for a RPG is oblivion.

Actually, I was thinking more the range of 5 minutes. Like I said, this may never happen.

Of course, if the dungeon master was an extremely powerful supercomputer with artificial intelligence and creativity......

Well Consdering the Fact, To do it in five minutes the program would basically have to read your mind to an extent. Then you would have to go through a list of variables to change. because if a program can read your mind, Exactly, I wouldnt even go withing a 100 miles of something like that. To freaky, To freaky........