Does anyone on here have any ideas why it seems popular or chic to have a poster of El Che or t-shirts, etc?


(notice: this is the debate forum, so do not be suprised when I come out debating with claims made on this thread )

Honestly all I know is that he's a Cuban guy or something and a revolutionary, but I've been to several other world countries, such as China and UAE, and I've seen foreign people wearing his propaganda. Like you, I don't know what it means and can't answer the question. Why do you ask? You mentioned you were a school teacher; are there students who wear these things?

What ever one feels about socialism, Che was a foot soldier of the heart. I do believe that he was trying to do his best for the poorest people in the poorest part of the Americas. He didn't fit in with the bureaucratic Marxist-Leninism ( is there any other kind?) that Fidel and the other revolutionistas in Cuba bought into, so he took himself off to the sticks of South America to further the revolution on the ground, on the, to him , front line.

If he hadn't been bumped off by... whoever ( the argument starts here...) he might have lived long enough to become as much a threat to Fidel, as Trotsky did to Stalin. Fidel would have had him liquidated. That's just how the world of the Reactionary Red works. Or, Che might have lived long enough to become the head of yet another totalitarian regime.

He's popular because he died young, and relatively untainted by the nasty water he was swimming in.

I'm curious because I'm Cuban ,or rather of Cuban Heritage ... I was born on this side of the Florida Staits ... and I find it kind of obnoxious for people who benifit very strongly from both the good and bad of capitalism to embrace Che ... wondering the feeling comes from.

He wasn't a "nice guy" by any stretch of the label and woudl be honestly considerred a terrorist had he been running around in these days. Now, before anyone jumps too conclusions ... I do not defend terrorist activities that our own government have participated in or orchestrated .... but I also don't go running around with pictures of JFK or Woodrow Wilson on my wall or on t-shirts ...


I do agree with Chesto that he was concerened for the poor in a way that Fidel and many others were not ... I think, more than anything, he wasn't in it for his personal glory or Power. My dad worked under him in one of the many work projects that he was in charge of, and my dad respected him, despite his VERY anit-communist opinions. Of course, my dad's strong opposition to communism come from his experiences with it, not because of some preconceptions about it. To this day my father is convinced that it was Che's own people who turned him in to be killed... specifically Fidel. ... but I'll leave that tack since it has nothing to do with the topic really ....

KFBD, he isn't a Cuban, but that's where he gets his "fame" you could say ... he was Argentinian ... that's why he gets the monicer "Che" which is some "label" type thing used in argentina who's meaning escapes me ... but it's related to ... Dude ...


One of the things that is interesting about Che-- and is the reason my father claims that the International Communists had him hung out to dry--is that he actually wanted Fidel to Court the US and not ally with Soviet Russia. From what I gather, he felt strongly that Socialism could only work if the the State actually produced things worth selling, ... and that using a large industrial market like the US as a source of materials for that production, as well as a trading partner, would be MUCH more beneficial to the people, than an alliance with the Soviets, which he rightly recognized as a thinly veiled form of Empire....

BUT, this doesn't change the fact that he believed in the VIOLENT over throw of a non-socialist governemtn as the most effective way to gain the power to implement his ideas .... it doesnt change the fact that he has had a hand in the formation of nearly every "successful" marxist revolutionary group that has terrorized central and south america since the 60's ... there are rumors ... that's the best I coudl call them really .... that he was personally involved in suggesting that the FARQ look to using the traffic of Coca as a means of support while waging its civil war on the COlombian government ...


anyway.... so is it that people just ignore that side of his legacy? or choose to forget or not find out?


and Chesto thanks that was a very succint and in formed response .... looking at my response I see that I'm really just venting and almost ranting thank you for your patience

V stands for Victory, and Che Guevarra stands for Freedom. That's what most people think however.
Truth to be told, I don't know much about him, except that he was against the goverment and such.

I DO know however, that the famous picture of him is actaully quite inspiring. It has a sort of aura around it that makes you want to continue walking a while longer.

I think it is useful to look at both sides vis a vis Che: the governments which he was seeking to overthrow were, to the best of my recollection, not democratic by any standard that we would use now. And their methods of staying in power certainly didn't make them choir boys. Che's lot weren't either.

One has to place Che's activities in the context of the Cold War, which had been running from around the time of my birth- though not, I am sure , entirely for my personal benefit- until the fall of the Russian Soviet Empire. Che was merely a combatant in a small theater of the overall war.

The fact that he can still be considered a hero to some, or many, usually young folk is as I mentioned earlier: he died young enough not to have had the time to turn into a s**t. And the 'photo' just proves Marshall MacCluhan's ( sp?)dictum: The medium is the message.

It's funny that you quote MacCluhan (i'll take your spelling, i'm too lazy to check ) ... the Communists have always had this one on Democratic governments : Better Icons ... Communist/soviets are Very good at manipulating the public the icons, slogans and chants.

on a tangent ... you mention the previous gov'ts ... and I think of Cuba in 1959 ... and it trips me out how the idea of the winners dictating the history. A lot of people, who should know better actually have lined up with the Fidelistic retelling of Cuban history ... for example... they talk about his wonderful medical services that extend to the poor etc ... and they basically revoice Fidel's propaganda .... and yet, my mom and others who remember tell me that as far as they can remember, by 1950 most poor people on the island had access to free medical care , despite being under a dictator, Batista ... Secondary education was also free, and there were subsidies for post-secondary for some subjects .... which is a better situation than even many states in the US had ... Which makes sense since the island had become wealthy from its tourist trade, mob connections and Strong Industrial presence from Dupont and GM as well as other smaller companies ... who had begun to export assembly plants to the island. My dad and all his cousins worked at a champion spark-plug assembly plan ... well I think it was champion ..I'd have to ask him to refresh my memory ...


What old people, including my parents tell me, is that from about '56 on, things were getting scary becuase people who wanted Batista out (and there were many, the communists, the soviets, the old regime, the old Military leadership that he had fired [two of my dad's uncles were part of that group] .... some were starting to use terrorist tactics, placing bombs in public areas, setting fires in movie thearters ...stuff like that ... FORCING the dictator to enforce a heavy hand. Fidel first gets arrested for orchestrating stuff like that. But, through pressure from the French and the American government, Fidel was only jailed and later exiled, and not executed. (... funny huh?)


Anyway ... i digressed again ...I guess I understand now why the tshirts exist ...its a mix of the "cool" effect and ignorance... the people wearing the shirts don't really know more than the hype ... the Oliver Stone version of things ...

hmm... Oliver Stone .... when are we going to arrest him for unamerican activities ? ...man! I can't believe that the press had nothing to say about him hanging out with the FARC and CHavez during that trumped up PR event where the kidnapped victims were released ...

...And all you know is the hype from the other side.

It's really quite depressing that the extreme minority of people that actually benefited under the rule of Batista and the mob fled at the fist sign of trouble and have essentially dictated US policy on Cuba ever since then. Nobody in West Miami is doing the Cuban people any favors.


Like the bombings by Cuban anti-Castro groups on targets inside the US?

Things aren't nearly as black-and-white as you seem to think they are. All the “old people” you talk about are just about as far from heroes as you can imagine.

... Actually, I have heard lots on both sides of the story, ... unlike most people in the US, I don't watch the national news here, much ... though I listen to NPR. But I do watch Globovision (Venezuela), CNN espanol, Caracol(Colombia), TVE (Spain), and the old Venezuelan Channel- the one Castro's protige closed down- when it can broadcast off of support channels.

So I do get to hear many different sides to the stories that go about.

My dad wasn't an "enemy" of the state, until Castro's regime denied access to Colleges and Universities to anyone who would not affiliate with the Communist Party, especially not Students active in an evangelical Church.... and arrested 65 pastor's in Havana for, supposedly, being spies for the CIA ...

now, for your statement about the "extreme minority" that actually benefited ... .well, my mom, unlike most people in "latin america" at the time, didn't have to pay for school before castro came in to power. The school system was only changed in ONE significant way when Castro took over: Teachers had to be alligned with the Party or they had to leave. Later came the 'circulo's infantiles' which were daycare centers that later evolved into education camps where the children, after a certain young age, I can't remember, were sent away from home for school for months at a time. The State became the children's family.

... lets see ... what other fable can I attack .. oh yeah, the Medical services .... according to my mom, dad, aunts, uncle, ... and grand-mas, when they were alive ... have told me about being able to see a doctor when they needed to ...before Fidel took over ... that each major neighborhood in Havana had a local clinic that gave basic medical services free. ... You didn't even have that in the US in the 50's . Again, all that Fidel did was expand on what already existed, and centralized the bureaucracy(sp?) ... Now I don't know if the University was free ... I doubt that .... but I also no my dad was pretty poor growing up ... but he managed to have ways of making money growing up ... he talks about selling avocado's in the street and shirts made by some company or other ... my dad remembers the guy as a Jewish man who would sell the stuff at cost to my dad, and so my dad peddled shirts on the streets. Then came fidel and that kind of "capitalism" was slowly cracked down on.


now, as to the benefits of Socialism ... Marxist Bastard, why don't you tell us about those ?


oh darn, forgot that you were referring to the terrorist acts ...

I wasn't hear in the 60's .... and neither were my parents .. and I try not to talk about things I don't know about. So you are right... I don't know about any terrorist attacks on the US by Exiled member's of Batista's supporters.

I do know about the bombing of that plane ...which I think was just another bungled CIA event ...where the wrong people were given the wrong information and the Marxists were given another PR moment .... it reminds me of Dennis in the Quest for the Holy Grail, "Come see the violence inherent in the System!! Help Help! I'm being Repressed!"

Funny thing about Marxist-Socialist Governments, the first thing they destroy is a free press.

i'm sorry... what old people did I Heroify?

if I did, I apologize, because that certainly wasn't my intention either. I know the history of my heritage ... there was nothing GREat about Batista ... BUT ... in hind sight, he sure was alot better than FIdel and Che ... under Batista, at most, lets be generous and say that 100 dissidents were murdered.

Under the Revolution, 100's of men and women were executed within the first year of Power. 1000's if not 10's of 1000's were imprisioned for many many years ... most with nothing that could be called a fair hearing, let alone an actual trial. anyway... i'll stop talking for a while ... cuz its stops being a debate if I'm the only one talking.

and Again, thank you all for responding and helping understand the attraction that Che offers. Like I said earlier in the thread, my dad actually liked him, and felt that Cuba would be a much better place had He been incharge instead of Fidel. that's gotta count for something.