Here's a brand-spanking new topic for the Game Violence thing we were talking about under "Newbies" in case anyone wanted to continue talking about it.

Here's an idea. I believe that if game violence was somehow involved in the real-life violence, then the person who performed them probably had some psychological disorders. Maybe, there could be a law in which we are granted a permit to purchase violent video games, provided we have a thorough examination from a psychiatrist first. If you believe you are perfectly sane and are not about to blow your neighbor's brains out because you saw it on a game, then you should have nothing to worry about, and just go to the psychiatrist, then get a permit, and buy your games!

Then of course games would go black market for those without permits, and we'll have a whole new thing to let our poor law enforcement to worry about....But isn't letting people with unknown mental histories buy video games a thing to worry about in itself?

Why not do this for firearms instead?

I don't think this is going to be a very heated topic. It's in a gaming forum. That would be like going to a forum entitled "Liberals USA" and starting a topic about whether or not Bush is a good leader; you're going to get a rather unanimous answer: YES! It's no different here. Anyone who joins a gaming forum and adamantly opposes video games is either a moron or a troll.

However, that doesn't necessarily apply to someone who adamantly opposes specific elements that appear in some games.

Exactly. Why would we be concerned about violent people purchasing something like GTA, when we could stop them from buying guns.

We can't. It against the law to prevent the purchase of guns. You can restrict it, but, in the end, the second amendment shines through and lets people buy their guns.

*sigh*

This one again. Anyone who actually thinks that video game violence causes real-world violence is completely lacking in both common sense and understanding of basic statistics. Trying to censor video games is a fundamentally broken idea, and an abuse of our basic freedoms. The idea of a mandatory license and psychological evaluations just goes so far beyond this and off the scale of painful stupidity that I can't really even begin to address its problems.




Not only is this false in theory, but it's false in practice as well. If you can't prevent the purchase of guns, how are we doing it right now? I can't walk down to my local sporting goods store and buy a 30mm machine gun, as much as I'd like one. I can't buy and carry a pistol without a permit. I couldn't buy a gun of any kind until I was 18. If I am convicted of a felony, I will no longer be able to own a gun of any kind. Clear legal precedent says that these laws are constitutional, but besides that, common sense says they are a good idea. Even if you have a right to own a gun, that right is not absolute.

Also, by this reasoning, the first amendment says you can't restrict video games at all.

I think people didn't understand me. I am NOT opposing video games. I am pro-video game, but I am wondering why other people are trying to say that video games are the reason for violence. If somebody banned video games I think that would be the end of me. Also, banning gun ownership is against the 2nd amendment.

So, since we are all gamers, please state why video games ARE NOT the reason for real world violence. And give full thought, and don't give answer like, "people who think gaming violence is bad are stupid".

Then why do you propose an absurd license system that would essentially be the death of the industry?



See above. No reasonable interpretation of the second amendment makes gun ownership an absolute right. Besides this common sense fact, all legal precedent says this is the case. Just to repeat the obvious example, convicted felons are banned from owning guns, and nobody has any problem with this.




Why? "People who think gaming violence is bad are stupid" is really the only thing that needs to be said here. There is no evidence for any significant causal effect between the two. Asking for detailed proof against their claims is no different than demanding a detailed explanation of why my theory that eating pizza causes violence is wrong. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim, and the games-cause-violence side has completely failed to meet this burden. All that's left to do is laugh at them.

I think that the people in control of banning or not banning the government can say whatever they want, regardless of the proof. And honestly, even if we as gamers did speak out against anti-gaming, it would do no good. In case people didn't already get it, the people DO NOT control this government, no matter what history books tell us.

Therefore, why make this post? I am not trying to start a real "heated debate" since most people I assume have the same opinion. This isn't a real serious issue to me, but its absurd altogether, so why not talk about it? I feel that things concerning the gaming industry deserve to be discussed among gamers, since outside groups would say that gaming violence is bad.

I'd like to point out that bellydancer isn't quite against violence in video games (or if you are, I stand corrected), but the point is that whether you believe or not that violent video games causes violence in the real world, there is no scientific proof (other than someone who already had some form of mental illness that included psychotic tendencies) that violence in games = violence in real life. Anyone who believes this obviously knows nothing of the industry (as I pointed out in the other thread that led up this one, Sen. Joe Lieberman and his supporters know nothing about this, and should leave well enough alone).

I used to repect Lieberman..before he ran with Gore. He is earning some back in recent times.
But they are all knowing senators (senile-tors)
I love how they try to regulate and censor media they know nothing about.
Kind of like when Tipper Gore attacked rock and roll. Al was the head of the committee that she was a witness in.
Thank god it was John Denver to the rescue

If they did ban games...would it create a black market of even more violent games?


However, I once played GTA vice city and san andres non stop one weekend. Afterwards, I did have thoughts of running people over and other very dark thoughts.

I wish I had my sister's research she did on this. She swears it causes violence in the average younger children, but not in the average high school age. Something to do with when the brain fully develops solid morals and rational behaviors.

edit:
err.. talked to her after writing that...she say high school age is not fully developed and able to be influenced.
The average adult is not influenced by violent games.
She also added that a sociopath is more apt to play violent games...then do violence. However, without the games, they still would do the violence.
The games are just scapegoats for a deranged persons actions.

She now teaches psychology. She does a unit on this in her class. Plays a boring game and the kids just watch. Then she puts in mortal combat and whips a few kids at it. The student go wild and start yelling some disturbing things. Then, she points out their reactions to the games.

People, especially young people, who play games for a long period of time build up levels of stress. No matter what the content. The problems arise when this stress is alleviated in unacceptable ways, ie. real violent acts. We all have different ways of dealing with stress. Some just go loco, even after playing My Little Pony for too long.

In short, your answer: “No”.

I wrote my final English 1101 term paper on this very topic, arguing that “Video games and gaming in general does not cause violent behavior in children”. Minus a few punctuation point deductions (2pts *sniffles*) I received a perfect grade (98). <~~ and I had a very critical english professor too, who prided heself on never giving a 100 for any term paper ever.

Basically in a nutshell, anyone expressing violent behavior due to playing a video game already has a preexisting mental condition and the actions / violence experienced while playing the game merely surfaced and nurtured what was alredy present. But no parent will admit that, because their ‘baby’ can’t be screwy; it must be something else that did it. This thinking is a classic “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” fallacy. Formatted for this topic, it translates into: “Because some video games are violent, the people who play them will therefore become violent.” And this wasn’t just geared towards the young minds either; it’s the same for all age groups.

I’m not going to recreate my paper here, and I wasn’t bragging about my grade, merely that I wrote some much defined and well researched text about it. I am not going to hijack the thread but trying to blame games for violent behavior is the same as trying to blame guns for murders. (I am not going to talk about that any more, and please let’s not talk about it – it was JUST A COMPARISON EXAMPLE!!)

Blaming games for violent behavior is not the same as blaming guns for murder. Weapons make killing easier, and that is their purpose; games do not make violence easier, and their purpose is entertainment.

actually, games do make violence eaiser .... because practicing something is the best way to make something easier to do .... violent games don't make violent people .... violent games give violent people better practice

and if you don't aggree with this, you should do some research on the history of games and play, and you'll see that humanity has been using play and games to prepare the young for adulthood ... because practice sux if it isn't fun.

The Army changed from practicing on bullseyes to practicing with silhouettes to help soldier get over the NATURAL disinclination we have to killing people ... now they find that threeD fps 's help do the same thing ...

How? well the theory goes that you mind, when finding it self in the REAL LIFE situation and needs to do what it is disinclined to do, falls back on training ... it will in a sense super-impose the fake over the real to help the mind justify what it's doing. ...

long periods of doing this, however, has its effects ..and we are seeing it on our soldiers .... we don't see it in these people with the killing sprees because ..well, they usually don't live long enough to have the cool down time to reflect on what they did ... blam, take themselves out ...

Except that most video games are not realistic. For instance, have you ever tried target shooting while jumping around? I doubt that you would do very well.

And there's the whole matter of controllers. Using mouse, keyboard, and crosshair to move and shoot is very different from running around holding a weapon, and targeting by sight alone.


Now, if you were to say "Paintball gives violent people better practice", I would agree, and note that it also teaches weapon handling and real-world tactics. This is not, however, the same as saying that people who play paintball are violent, or that people with violent tendencies find paintball appealing.

Exactly. To paraphrase someone else: “Button mashing is as far removed from the makings / workings of a real firearm is your ass is from the dark side of Uropa.

Mashing a controller or working a keyboard won’t make you a better marksman – but as mentioned, paintballing actually will, because it’s using ‘the real deal’, so to speak.

Games don’t cause this behavior – they provide an outlet for aggressive feelings which in turn promote healthy social behavior once it’s ‘out of their system’.

Abramul and xenxander ... actually, that hasn't been found to be true. despite the fact that the mechanics of the shot is different.... what they have found is that, psychologically, the person becomes better prepared for the shots ... especially in FPS, because the games, trying to be more realistic, include many of the 'tricky' physics that real life throws at a shooter .... like having to lead a moving target, etc. Plus the whole idea of hitting humanoid shapes, which we are found to have a natural disinclination to want to do so. I was in the army, and my brother was an Airborne infantryman, who was Ranger-certified and was trained as a Sniper ... I have talked to him and many of his friends and they back up this concept with their own experiences. They said that the hardest part of shooting someone the first time was the idea that they were shooting someone. And each one (about 10 guys) told me that, in different ways or words of course, that they fell back on their training to get past the idea of killing a man. They made themselves forget that he was a man, and just thought of him as another target.

This is one of the areas where violent video games help make a person more ... expressively violent, let say.

and I never mentioned paintball... because it wasn't the topic. Sure, paintball will give a violent person better practice at shooting people too ... so will hunting animals ... but those aren't on the topic.

I think everyone missed a basic factor: Ignorance.
Ignorance and isolation is the key to violence and lack of empathy towards others, no matter if you are a 12 year old kid or a 30 year old guy.

In my opinion, videogames are less dangerous than TV; in certain cases videogames could vent off the stress you take from real life, while in certain TV shows (for example certain american police stories that i hate) violence is a normal thing, discounted. Killing is not only a basic rule, but is a RIGHT thing! The funny part is that the main characters BELIEVE in this, through a perverse cult of personality. (anyone read American Psycho by Ellis?)

Blaming videogames for making people shooting in the schools is driving away the attention from the real problems. Get people some opportunity to enrich their culture first, and then we'll talk about violent videogames.

Let me say another thing or two: About the weapons you can buy in usa, repel this culture of self defense as soon as possible; you arent safe in a world where everyone is armed. You are safe in a world where everyone hates weapons.

I'm from Italy and i can assure you that here the mediatic system is a global project to make people dumb, ignorant and detached from political life, in addition, 99% of Journalists are servants of the politicians, so they can say all the lies they want without being opposed. We are in a state of permanent mediatic coma. I'm not only criticizing you americans you see. You should export your literature, not your "democracy".

I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you; some games in the hands of some people do make violence easier in the form of learned behavior. I see learned behavior everyday in my son, he sees something (usually from his sister) and he mimics it. He watches a Spider Man cartoon & later I find him acting it out, which is a perfectly normal thing for a child to do.

What’s important in both issues guns & video games is the person’s mentality and the heart. Guns don’t kill people, people do. I have guns & I have a different mentality about them I’m sure than the average gang member. My Dad grew up in a town full of guns & people didn’t go around shooting folks, that’s crazy & I’ll tell another thing if staff members at Virginia Tech would have been armed a lot fewer students would have been shot. I use to watch Speed Racer, that show was real violent, with automatic weapons, crashes, cars going off cliffs & more. But I knew it was pretend & TV wasn’t real.

I changed my view on things when about 15 years ago I was in the break room of where I worked & this 20 yr old guy was talking about Wolverine & how he was so cool & could beat so & so. I jokingly walked up to him & said well Godzilla could just step on him & squish him. -I swear this is the truth- he turned, looked me right in the eyes (straight face) & said “I’m talking about real people”, I just stood there in disbelief.
After a few moments of silence in the break room some one spoke up & said something and he finally snapped into reality. After that experience my opinion changed & has been supported since then after working with children.

Learned behavior is real, why do you think the military uses video games?

Obviously someone mustn't have taken their meds ...JK No, but seriously, I agree that it's not these things (guns/video games) that are the root cause people dying - it's some idiot who can't distinguish fact from fiction. *sighs* And it's now becoming more evident that people are starting to not be able to think for themselves - people are lacking a little something called "common sense". But that is another debate for another time.

i wish I had time to respond ... but I have to say that I really agree with Hoots on this one

ok ..I can finally give a short response to this:


Needlessly Violent Video games help train our young people to see Violence as the most logical response to a situation ... It helps their mind justify actions taken against "them" -- an ability human's have had for a long time ... something that Games and tales have been helping us do for a long time ... Stories about monsters etc have been there to help desensitize the young to the killing of the "other" who may attack the village or tribe ... the desensitization is important, because, as soldiers will tell you ... a moments hesitation at the wrong time could mean your life and/or that of those around you.

... silhoute targets are used in military training, not to make the soldier better at hitting targets ... but better at hitting HUMAN targets. we have a naatural defense mechanism against killing people. MOST human-beings don't like the idea ... my brother-in-law nearly commited suicide in a drunken depression after he thought he had stabbed and killed some guy in a fight... the remorse was nearly unbearable for him because he kept thinking about whether or not that guy had a family and kids etc ....


Does this mean all you people who play Grand Theft Auto are going to become car thieves and murderers? no ... but it does mean that given a certain circumstance, you are more likely to run someone down who is threatening you, than you (the same person) would be had you never played GTA1-4

...violent games also make violence more tolerable ...at least, violence to others ...


I didn't realise how desensitized i'd become to the idea of killing creatures ... until someone watched me playing LotR Online .... She started asking me if I like hunting ( i live in an area of the country where Hunting is almost a religion) .. and I answered not really ... i'm not sure I could kill an animal if I went out there ...

... then she said ..well ... what if someone paid you 60 bucks to go shoot em down ... I thought for a moment ..and yeah Sure .. why not? then I noticed that I was killing deer on sight to get the exceptional hides ...

the thing about the above is that ... I've never been able to hunt because of my aversion to killing animals ... I've caught fish twice ...and the remorse of having ended the fish's life made me sick ..stupid I know, but I recently went hunting from a friend and I first balked at shooting the deer .. until I noticed how accurately the LotR's people had made their deer ... in the next instant I pulled the trigger. Didn't even think about it.

... however, being able to shoot people or in general be violent to people, doesn't mean that the consequences of your actions don't settle in ... and this is what further convinces me that violent video games are having this really negative effect on people ... everyone of those guys who killed people in a school.. people they often times wanted to get even with ... were over come suddenly by remorse and killed themselves ( its actually pretty hard to kill yourself too ... theere is a BIG mental resistance against that thought that has to be over come .... i'd give the references if I knew where I learned it all ...but I've been in school for so long I don't knwo all the places I read, hear and learn all this stuff at ...

Okay. I usually stay away from things like this, but I just have to enter my input.

When I play video games, it's sometimes a way to vent my anger (not ALL the time, only sometimes). When people say, "If you play this, you will grow up to be a murderer." But, when you play a game, all you do is press buttons. It doesn't ACTUALLY teach you how to shoot a gun, or stab someone. That's like being in the military and having your trainer say, "Okay, press 'R' to reload your weapon."

Just thought I'd put in my two-cents worth.

I have to agree that violence, in whatever form (video games, movies, news, etc.) after a time, desensitizes people. We get used to seeing it everywhere and are no longer shocked that people were shot or whatever. I think one of the main points is that politicians, and media still make video games out to be only for children. Like movies a rating system has been in effect for many years that clearly states when a game is appropriate for a certain age. Yet, working at Gamestop for over three years, I was continually surprised at parents when their ten-year-old would bring up a M-rated game. I tell their mom/dad, this is actually rated for people 17+ for: blood/gore, use of alcohol, realistic violence, etc. Almost invariably their response would be: "OK, as long as it doesn't have any sex." I wholeheartedly agree that ultimately, it is in the individuals own sanity whether they will actually decide to go out and perform horrible acts or not. But the responsibilty in teaching younger kids this, lies with their parents, or guardian. As a child, my parents were extremely lieniant with me. I watched R-rated movies as young as 8. While I did start cussing very early, (and continue to today) I have still never been in a single fight my entire life, let alone a shoot-out. I have also loved every GTA game since GTAII. Yet, have never stolen a car, or killed a hooker. I don't think I've ever even borrowed a car from anyone. In real life I am very reserved, and respectful, but when somebody cuts me off in that game, you better beleive I chase them down and make them pay! Something I would never even consider doing for real. I guess the point I want to add is, you have to pay more attention to the person playing the game, not so much the game itself. I am sure everyone here grew up on Looney Tunes. But have any of you been hit in the head with an anvil? -Thanks for listening.

Hmmm... We went over this a bit in sociology so I'll toss my two cents into the pot as well.

Basically, the human brain is not developed fully until adulthood. Skirting around the actual psychological stuff, basically children aren't fully capable of thinking out the consequences of their actions, and children like acting things out.

As for desensitizing violence, yes, hell yes, it does. I got through a particularly nasty series of photographs in a scare-tactic anti-drugs assembly i had to go to in school by thinking about how much it looked like half-life. To illustrate my point:



Violence in video games isn't necessarily bad; part of video games is that you can do in them what you cannot do in real life. Fantasy games, anyone? You just have to be able to keep your life and your entertainment separated. And, for children, who usually cannot, their parents have to get off their lazy worthless butts and actually check on what their kid is playing, and maybe tell him/her to go outside!

Well, just a little about me..

My gaming history is pretty violence with Soldier of fortunes and such. I like violece in movies, games and I must to admit.. in real life as well. When I was a kid, I liked to hunt any little animal I could catch and do some "experiments" with them. I have shot down illegally some birds with air gun and left them to suffer. I have burned down a house(well, that's not violent but anyway). I've been also in MANY fights in my life and I actually enjoyed them.

Not to mention that I've been actually living under very offensive and mind pressuring mental violence caused by my step father past 10 years.

However, at this point I have to say.. I have NEVER started a single fight I've been in. Not with fists but not even with words. Despite the fact I do enjoy violence, I would never hurt anyone in the means of attack. What I'm trying to say with all this is that all the violent media and real life violence i've experienced has not made me to do any offensive movement toward anyone.

With GTA 4 out does this mean every type of violence be blame on the game?
Cause everytime or most evertime something happens the GTA games get the blame.
Violence have been around for well longer then video games or TV, movies first came out.
I played games that had violence in them, as a kid i didnt go out and killed someone and try to blame video games.

I actually agree with this. I haven't become a complete lunatic, I WILL SLIT YOUR THROAT!, games that involve violence are just a way to vent your anger. (I was only joking about slitting your throat unless you make an apointment. )

well if your not american i can understand what you are saying, Here we got this peice of paper that a few people have been pooting on lately, ( few high ranking goverment officials, need i say more? Want a big slice of the patriot act anyone? ) and having to get a permit to buy A video game with a mature rating would yet again be another form of censorship. What really needs to be done is enforcment of checking for I.D's and resposible ( yeah right i know right!) parenting, by which i mean the taking away of and smashing therefore game DVD/CD into a million pieces, and the telling to the child i dont allow you to play such violent games at age 7.!

As i have said before. Mature games are not meant for immature people.

YES, like most problems enforcement is the solution; but politicians would rather get their face on TV by introducing some new piece of legislation than do the unglamorous job of helping enforce the laws already on the books.

As soon as your born they make you feel small, By giving you no time instead of it all, Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all, A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be. They hurt you at home and they hit you at school, They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool, Till you're so vulking crazy you can't follow their rules.....Lennon

No, it isn't video games that create violent people...

I played the classic DooM games at a younger age, and I never decided to do violent things.

violent games do not make people violent
Stupidity,greed,sloth, anger,lust,jealousy and on and on do.
Looking for something to blame is the same as saying guns kill people,
so do knifes,ropes,crowbars,etc,etc.
its the person,not the object he uses!

I've been playing violent games since i can remember. (which is 14. i got hit by a car and cannot remember anything before it)
and I'm really quite passive, i real life that is

Theres no evidence of anybody being manipulated to do violent things because of the influence in video games.

Its the governments of each nation around the world- looking to blame something. However, the case of this.. in my eyes is the opposite way around.

Violence in Video Games.. Comes from people WHO ARE VIOLENT!

While I aggree on the first two points I disagree on the third.
the way I see it, like sex Violence sells (to a degree).
violence is an easily relatable gameplay mechanic even if you aren't that familier with the tools of destruction available in RL (you just know that swinging a sword at someone should hurt). and it's an easy way to move the story allong And since violence is a tabboo subject it can be entertaining if there there is no immediate consequence to the gamer.

I couldn't tell if you were referring to the gamers or the game makers.

Well, think of it this way if i never made myself clear earlier.
-

Take for example.. guns. If guns never existed in the world, then guns would have a 95% chance of not appearing in video games. You see where this is going?

If objects in the world never existed, then it would probably never show up in video games. Apart from Magic. However, that never existed, that was done just by lighting effects

it may be true that if guns didn't exist most games wouldn't use them. they would most likely instead use a known dangerous implement,like cars, axes or sporks .

that doesn't mean that anyone making a violent game is going to use a spork with intent to maim.

I think that it's pretty ignorant to say that violent video games always or never make people violent. Most people are definitely level-headed enough to realize that the violence in video games is just fantasy, but I have no doubt that there are people who are not able to draw the line betwen reality and fantasy. Video games are most likely not beneficial for people like that. However, neither would books, movies, tv, even imagination be beneficial for people like that. So, in my opinion, I don't think that banning violent video games just for a minority would be a good idea or even help anything.

Thats the thing I think. You never hear about the level headed, intelligent, responsible gamers in the national media. But if somebody commits murder and they've ever played Super-Mario Bros. then the media celebrates it to no end. Like in the case of Fox News(Joke of an information source that it is.) and their piss-poor coverage of Mass Effect. People are only to willing, eager even, to blame all of societies ills on the most convinient scapegoat, rather than put any effort into actually trying to correctly diagnose and treat the problem. This also kinda applies to the presidential canidate campaigns. People are to lazy to actually think about anything they're told, or to try and dig deeper to find out all the facts. They just take whatever spoon-fed crap they're handed on the TV, and pretend like it's the whole story.

The laws of percentages dictate that there will always be a number of individual sociopathic types within a given population. Any of them can fixate on some cultural aspect at any time, as a means of rationalizing their poor behavior.
Lately, video games are the "culprit" for society's ills.
Long ago, people believed that Comic Books contributed to Juvenile Delinquincy.
Charlie Manson fixated on the Beatles' White Album as his rationale for the Tate-LaBianca murders.

Take 'em all away, get rid of everything that smacks of modern entertainment, make everybody live just like the Amish... and there will still be a certain percentage who will flip out, and insist that Bossie the Milk Cow has told them it's okay to kill their neighbor with a hand-sickle.

The belief that Video Game Violence leads to Real-World violence is a pop-cultural phenomena, and has no proven historical truth to back it up.

Yeah, well that's Fox for you. But you're right.

I agree. Take Columbine for example. The generation I'm a part of would never have had the thought of taking firearms to school. If there was a problem, and it couldn't be talked through, then you settled it mano-a-mano on the schoolyard.

Liberal parents were the problem. No discipline taught, so the children grow up unprepared for adult life and wind up disliking their parents for not teaching them their limits.

Truly liberal parents would rarely allow a collection of firearms in their house, but that's beside the point.
The Columbine shootings were popularly blamed on video games, but consider other high-profile incidents.
There were a rash of suicides that were blamed on Ozzy Osborne recordings, and the Virginia Tech shootings, which were committed by a mentally-ill foreign national... in all of these cases, there were failures on both the parents of the shooters, and the surrounding mental-health "professionals" to take note of, and take action on, obvious anti-social behaviors prior to them erupting into violence.
Once the shell-casings stop bouncing, everybody is suddenly quick to point fingers at external causes, rather than accept personal blame for their failure to properly care for their kids.

I don't think parents spaking their children would have stopped colombine. those kids were obviously in a lot of pain. Not that they were the victims, yet I still can't help but pity them.

Discipline does not necessarily imply corporeal punishment, Timi. Disciplining your kids includes communicating with them consistently, never leaving them uninformed, and always considering their needs before your own. It includes being fair and impartial with both rewards and punishments. It requires a fair amount of effort on the part of whomever serves in a leadership role, be it parent, teacher, counselor, or whatever, to be fully proactive in getting to know your charges, so that you can instinctively tell when something is disturbing them.

Lassez-faire is not the way to raise or discipline a child, but neither is constant spankings.
Talk is cheap, perhaps, but it's a darned effective tool.

you sir are a very wise man indeed!

I don't disagree, but I will say this, I know people (myself included) that are able to hide their emotions so well when they want to, that their parents, teachers, etc would all never think that they were anything but happy.

It was really stupid of the kids' parents to not be aware of the fact that they were stockpiling weapons though. How do you not see that happening?