Full Version: Morroblivion and mods that use content from other games
Well it looks like the mad god has taken over the Bethesda Legal department. All they did was make sure mods like these would go underground and probably distribute original content anyway (a little illegal, alot illegal whats the difference its still illegal) just to spite them. They could just make a 'Morrowind textures/meshes/etc assets pack' for sale to support mods like this and make a tidy profit recycling content.
I've done some roaming and reading, and it appears that they have a good (if unfortunate) reason for the ban that does NOT imply any problems for user-created Morrowind content, Borderless Cyrodiil, or any other slippery slope you can think of.
Apparently, the problem is that Bethesda licensed some of the content for Morrowind from other parties. Since the licensing agreements Bethesda signed in order to use this stuff only applies to a given game, official Morrowind content and any derivatives (i.e., Morrowind mods that use original content) can only be legally used BY BETHESDA in that game. The legality of our mods depends on it being legal for Bethesda to let us mod.
So, the problem with Morroblivion is that BETHESDA isn't allowed to allow anyone to use Morrowind content in Oblivion. Same for Oblivion content used elsewhere. They could get their asses sue off by anyone they signed a licensing deal with. Their hands are tied.
Of course, they also can't/won't tell us what is originally licensed from others and what isn't. So, their EULA forbids taking any content from one game and putting it in another, so that their asses are properly covered.
Apparently, the problem is that Bethesda licensed some of the content for Morrowind from other parties. Since the licensing agreements Bethesda signed in order to use this stuff only applies to a given game, official Morrowind content and any derivatives (i.e., Morrowind mods that use original content) can only be legally used BY BETHESDA in that game. The legality of our mods depends on it being legal for Bethesda to let us mod.
So, the problem with Morroblivion is that BETHESDA isn't allowed to allow anyone to use Morrowind content in Oblivion. Same for Oblivion content used elsewhere. They could get their asses sue off by anyone they signed a licensing deal with. Their hands are tied.
Of course, they also can't/won't tell us what is originally licensed from others and what isn't. So, their EULA forbids taking any content from one game and putting it in another, so that their asses are properly covered.
One more thing: Bring on the 'vaguely similar but legally distinct' vvardenfell mods using user created meshes and textures and vanilla oblivion assets.
QUOTE(EggDropSoap @ Feb 5 2008, 12:43 AM) 
Apparently, the problem is that Bethesda licensed some of the content for Morrowind from other parties. Since the licensing agreements Bethesda signed in order to use this stuff only applies to a given game, official Morrowind content and any derivatives (i.e., Morrowind mods that use original content) can only be legally used BY BETHESDA in that game. The legality of our mods depends on it being legal for Bethesda to let us mod.
Ohh dude....I must not be thinking....that makes sense. Still....
What if a group..a insane group...desided to re-create morrowind from scratch. Better yet...isn't morrowind in the past timewise compaire to oblivion? They could create whole new NPC and stories that are related to morrowind NPC and stories.
If its made from scratch....shouldn't be a problem then...
But then again....INSANE isn't enough to describe that undertaking. BUT...being pissed off is modivation.
PS..if I was involved in such a project...I would buy morrowind. so I would know all there is about it.
I guess we can continue voting Morroblivion as a file of month... just to show beth what support Galadrielle haves among midders and players 
QUOTE(batlham @ Feb 5 2008, 06:53 AM)
What if a group..a insane group...desided to re-create morrowind from scratch. Better yet...isn't morrowind in the past timewise compaire to oblivion? They could create whole new NPC and stories that are related to morrowind NPC and stories.
Do some searches on the official Bethesda forums and you'll find more than one project designed to do just that.
Off the top of my head I can think of 1) Silgrad Tower, 2) Tamriel Rebuilt, and 3) the awkwardly-named Project Solstheim-Vvardenfell-Mournhold.
Suggestion: If some of the content is from another source, have Bethesda tell us which files those are and then we can bring back morroblivion sans 3rd party content. Win win, right?
QUOTE(Grub @ Feb 5 2008, 08:06 AM)
Suggestion: If some of the content is from another source, have Bethesda tell us which files those are and then we can bring back morroblivion sans 3rd party content. Win win, right?
Sure, maybe. Except that they might not have the right to disclose that information. Or they might not have kept records of that information. Or the EULA just says everything is protected that way because that's legally simpler for them.
More likely, they just haven't kept the records or want to spend the money to piece it all together. Consider that even in-house content might have been produced by freelancers under contract, and those contracts are going to be very, very tight about what Bethesda can do with that content. If the contract is for "textures produced by Joe Contractor for Bethesda's exclusive use in TESIII: Morrowind" then Bethesda "owns" the textures but can't legally do just anything they want with them. Multiply that by however many dozen, hundreds, or whatever number of contracts they might have had for the making of Morrowind, and the result is a company that really, really just doesn't want to go there.
Add in the possibility that they might have lost track of some of the original licensing documents because they don't need to be consulted after the game has shipped with a blanket EULA that serves the same purpose, and you get a decision like this.
Besides, as another poster pointed out, this just gives all the more encouragement to the large Morrowind-recreation projects to keep working.
Now I am an avid tess fan since the time morrowind first came out and I usually am not involved in making mods and such.
(I do enjoy playing them tho ) and this is plain wrong.
Sure there are some groups that tend to want to create AN entirely NEW game based on oblivion engine or such but there's a distinct difference between these things.
I PAID for OBLIVION so money went to BETHESDA. Morroblivion was a mod and thus it was free. The creator of that ...well it's more promptly to call it a tool had no intentions (from what I can see anyways) to acquire money.
These things seriously piss me off. BETHESDA has proven to be greedy beyond doubt with their p2p mods (KOTN excluded) .... but orrery and house mods ....sigh. They were not worth it. And I damn well paid to play each of those mods.
(not worth the money if you ask me, again KOTN excluded to some degree)
With BETHESDA doing things like these , it will just piss the community off. I for one will no longer buy any of their products. If I really have to get em, I'll rather download them and seed them to torrent sites. This is just another proof that BETHESDA has become paranoid and greedy and that they do not longer deserve the support of this community.
I've played a lot of games, and been involved to a lot of communities before, but this one? Bethesda by far has the best community ever. To risk it all with this is just stupid.
ps: Wth where they planning on doing with morrowind anyways? If they were planning on using it... well it seems to me that's like reusing old content. They need to pull their heads from their (censured) and reconsider this. Community deserves new content if they were planning on capitalizing on morrowind even further.
(I do enjoy playing them tho
) and this is plain wrong.
Sure there are some groups that tend to want to create AN entirely NEW game based on oblivion engine or such but there's a distinct difference between these things.
I PAID for OBLIVION so money went to BETHESDA. Morroblivion was a mod and thus it was free. The creator of that ...well it's more promptly to call it a tool had no intentions (from what I can see anyways) to acquire money.
These things seriously piss me off. BETHESDA has proven to be greedy beyond doubt with their p2p mods (KOTN excluded) .... but orrery and house mods ....sigh. They were not worth it. And I damn well paid to play each of those mods.
(not worth the money if you ask me, again KOTN excluded to some degree)
With BETHESDA doing things like these , it will just piss the community off. I for one will no longer buy any of their products. If I really have to get em, I'll rather download them and seed them to torrent sites. This is just another proof that BETHESDA has become paranoid and greedy and that they do not longer deserve the support of this community.
I've played a lot of games, and been involved to a lot of communities before, but this one? Bethesda by far has the best community ever. To risk it all with this is just stupid.
ps: Wth where they planning on doing with morrowind anyways? If they were planning on using it... well it seems to me that's like reusing old content. They need to pull their heads from their (censured) and reconsider this. Community deserves new content if they were planning on capitalizing on morrowind even further.
Phew! I managed to grab the mod just a few days before they shut it down. I was very excited when I found it last week, it finally GAVE ME A REASON to use Morrowind which I bought dirt cheap from a friend, but never really bothered to play it since it felt pretty outdated compared to Oblivion. While I can understand that Bethesda wants to protect their property, the fate of this mod is sad since a lot of people bought or planned to buy Morrowind solely for this mod! It was awesome to see a single mod create such interest in an old game.
This mod was a true dream come true, since I've always wanted to venture beyond Cyrodiil's borders and experience something new... I was looking forward to see this thing updated and polished, but it's too late now.
Fortunately, the mod will most likely never disappear from the net, although future users need to get it from shadier, less respectable sites. It is also likely that the mod developer will be discouraged to continue working on it. Perhaps some brave individual will pick it up and perfect the mod to the shine it deserves. (Anyone here? Anyone?)
Oh well, now I'm off to Morrowind.
P.S. What the hell? Now mods which recreate Morrowind (handmade, not using ANY content from the game itself) are illegal as well? What'll happen to Beyond Cyrodiil and the like? Bloody bastards!
This mod was a true dream come true, since I've always wanted to venture beyond Cyrodiil's borders and experience something new... I was looking forward to see this thing updated and polished, but it's too late now.
Fortunately, the mod will most likely never disappear from the net, although future users need to get it from shadier, less respectable sites. It is also likely that the mod developer will be discouraged to continue working on it. Perhaps some brave individual will pick it up and perfect the mod to the shine it deserves. (Anyone here? Anyone?)
Oh well, now I'm off to Morrowind.
P.S. What the hell? Now mods which recreate Morrowind (handmade, not using ANY content from the game itself) are illegal as well? What'll happen to Beyond Cyrodiil and the like? Bloody bastards!
When you start up Oblivion you see over 5 other significant companies names/products - Havok, Bink, SpeedTree etc. - and they used some VERY high-profile actors (Sean Bean, Patrick Stewart) and so when eventually TES5:Whereever comes out, and people get inevitably nostalgic and want to recreate Cyrodiil in the new engine which will inevitably have better gameplay and graphics, they will be royally screwed if they don't edit their policy.
Even if Morrowind only contracted out to talented nobodies when it came to textures and voice-acting and those people wouldn't be able (or want) to ruin Bethesda, the huge names who licensed Bethesda to use their products in the big-budget Oblivion can and probably would.
I too believe that they are shooting themselves in the wallet now - no one is going to buy Morrowind anymore except for the Morroblivion converter - but I understand it if they are doing it to futureproof their arses.
While it is a shame that this one utility has been pulled, we need to keep it in perspective - Bethesda have given us better tools, more support and more leniency than most other development companies combined.
The SDK is simple and easy to use (any idiot can create new stats for a race/weapon/whatever and put them in the game) they favourably mention mods on their official blog and they have gone this long without clamping down on some mods which might hurt their company's image/finances (e.g. search for Oblivion screenshots, and you don't get far before the images of heroic warriors and pretty landscapes fade out to naked elf lasses or all of the "homage" mods to Morrowind content - like Ghogiel's armour).
If we have a big hissy-fit at Bethesda for doing this, we just sound like spoilt children who are annoyed that the cake we received didn't have any icing.
(and I doubt fileplanet will take down their copy, because the IGNEntertainments group could eat Bethesda for breakfast if they tried pressing the issue)
Even if Morrowind only contracted out to talented nobodies when it came to textures and voice-acting and those people wouldn't be able (or want) to ruin Bethesda, the huge names who licensed Bethesda to use their products in the big-budget Oblivion can and probably would.
I too believe that they are shooting themselves in the wallet now - no one is going to buy Morrowind anymore except for the Morroblivion converter - but I understand it if they are doing it to futureproof their arses.
While it is a shame that this one utility has been pulled, we need to keep it in perspective - Bethesda have given us better tools, more support and more leniency than most other development companies combined.
The SDK is simple and easy to use (any idiot can create new stats for a race/weapon/whatever and put them in the game) they favourably mention mods on their official blog and they have gone this long without clamping down on some mods which might hurt their company's image/finances (e.g. search for Oblivion screenshots, and you don't get far before the images of heroic warriors and pretty landscapes fade out to naked elf lasses or all of the "homage" mods to Morrowind content - like Ghogiel's armour).
If we have a big hissy-fit at Bethesda for doing this, we just sound like spoilt children who are annoyed that the cake we received didn't have any icing.
(and I doubt fileplanet will take down their copy, because the IGNEntertainments group could eat Bethesda for breakfast if they tried pressing the issue)
I've read through the seven pages of comments here, and frankly speaking, you guys really do sound like angry, angry ungrateful children >_>
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
This is the famous EULA. There's no explicit point to prohibit Morroblivion. Only one section shows that the use of other any executable wich modificate the contains is prohibited. So Wrye bash, OBSE, are illegal if you think like Bethesda but not prohibited.
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Bethesda own Morroblivion. They can do what they like.
Bethesda own Morroblivion. They can do what they like.
I believe that refers to content produced via the construction set; if I produce a texture, for example, simply distributing it with an Oblivion mod doesn't make it Beth's property.
@ Narzhul
You said:
frankly speaking, you guys really do sound like angry, angry ungrateful children >_>
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
I reply:
Spoiled children don't pay $50 for one's product. Adults do, and don't appreciate being told that they can't use the product as they see fit. Laws are tools, not morals. There is nothing wrong with using the Morroblivion tool, and the legal tools could have well been set aside for this particular case. No infringements were made as no materials were distributed. That the converter copies and modifies already owned content is not the same as uploading content.
To restrict mods is to restrict the value of the game. To restrict mods for such a pointless reason when the game itself is so incredibly bland (and therefore not worth the money) is what is at issue, and worthy of comment.
@FaceinThesand
You said:
The SDK is simple and easy to use (any idiot can create new stats for a race/weapon/whatever and put them in the game) they favourably mention mods on their official blog and they have gone this long without clamping down on some mods which might hurt their company's image/finances (e.g. search for Oblivion screenshots, and you don't get far before the images of heroic warriors and pretty landscapes fade out to naked elf lasses or all of the "homage" mods to Morrowind content - like Ghogiel's armour).
If we have a big hissy-fit at Bethesda for doing this, we just sound like spoilt children who are annoyed that the cake we received didn't have any icing.
I reply:
The editor is relatively easy to use until the new, TESIV, limit keeping mods affecting entire categories of variables from coexisting rears it's ugly head; THAT can be less than easy to deal with. Much fan-created mesh content was created outside of the editor and imported in, BTW.
Thae game itself is dull asa rusty nail and not worth shelling out hard earned cash for. Wanting MW, which was, relatively speaking, a much cooler game despite lower level graphics, is very understandable. Getting that earlier game to work with the new graphics was a ream come true for many, which Beth decided violated it's EULA, despite no actual upload of materials from either game.
You said:
frankly speaking, you guys really do sound like angry, angry ungrateful children >_>
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
I reply:
Spoiled children don't pay $50 for one's product. Adults do, and don't appreciate being told that they can't use the product as they see fit. Laws are tools, not morals. There is nothing wrong with using the Morroblivion tool, and the legal tools could have well been set aside for this particular case. No infringements were made as no materials were distributed. That the converter copies and modifies already owned content is not the same as uploading content.
To restrict mods is to restrict the value of the game. To restrict mods for such a pointless reason when the game itself is so incredibly bland (and therefore not worth the money) is what is at issue, and worthy of comment.
@FaceinThesand
You said:
The SDK is simple and easy to use (any idiot can create new stats for a race/weapon/whatever and put them in the game) they favourably mention mods on their official blog and they have gone this long without clamping down on some mods which might hurt their company's image/finances (e.g. search for Oblivion screenshots, and you don't get far before the images of heroic warriors and pretty landscapes fade out to naked elf lasses or all of the "homage" mods to Morrowind content - like Ghogiel's armour).
If we have a big hissy-fit at Bethesda for doing this, we just sound like spoilt children who are annoyed that the cake we received didn't have any icing.
I reply:
The editor is relatively easy to use until the new, TESIV, limit keeping mods affecting entire categories of variables from coexisting rears it's ugly head; THAT can be less than easy to deal with. Much fan-created mesh content was created outside of the editor and imported in, BTW.
Thae game itself is dull asa rusty nail and not worth shelling out hard earned cash for. Wanting MW, which was, relatively speaking, a much cooler game despite lower level graphics, is very understandable. Getting that earlier game to work with the new graphics was a ream come true for many, which Beth decided violated it's EULA, despite no actual upload of materials from either game.
Based on what I read in DarkOne's original post, Bethesda is politely asking him to remove one and one only mod, Moroblivion. So far, Bethesda has been exceedingly lenient in their allowing, and even encouraging us, the mod community to screw around with THEIR game. Far more than any other game maker has. The only reason I can see for this one request was their legal department sees a possible legal problem with Moroblivion. In other words, they might get sued. Or possibly some one has already threatened suit.
While I know that we like to consider ourselves to be Bethesda's target market, lets face it we are the lunatic fringe. The mod community likely makes up about 1% or less of the total Oblivion game purchasers. Their money comes from the 14 year old gamers who buy the game and play it for a week or two then move on without realizing what they are missing by not looking at mods. More and more the game companies are focusing on dedicated gaming consoles that can't be modded (so far). For the past few years all of the good new games are released on consoles first, and then, as an afterthought if at all, ported to the PC if we are lucky. Then, how many actually GIVE you a FREE construction set?
Also, most of the new games are multi player online. This nearly rules out our kind of modding as any real changes make them unsuitable for on line multiplayer use. Who wants to play with a bunch of 10 year old kamikazes with a three minute attention span?
Yes, I feel the loss, mostly for those talented modders who put in hundreds of hours to make Moroblivion only to have it jerked out from under them by some **** lawyer. But its thanks to Bethesda that we have a modding community at all.
As Will Shakespeare said, "The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers." Quoted from: Henry IV, Act 4, Scene 2 - %&$! the Butcher
While I know that we like to consider ourselves to be Bethesda's target market, lets face it we are the lunatic fringe. The mod community likely makes up about 1% or less of the total Oblivion game purchasers. Their money comes from the 14 year old gamers who buy the game and play it for a week or two then move on without realizing what they are missing by not looking at mods. More and more the game companies are focusing on dedicated gaming consoles that can't be modded (so far). For the past few years all of the good new games are released on consoles first, and then, as an afterthought if at all, ported to the PC if we are lucky. Then, how many actually GIVE you a FREE construction set?
Also, most of the new games are multi player online. This nearly rules out our kind of modding as any real changes make them unsuitable for on line multiplayer use. Who wants to play with a bunch of 10 year old kamikazes with a three minute attention span?
Yes, I feel the loss, mostly for those talented modders who put in hundreds of hours to make Moroblivion only to have it jerked out from under them by some **** lawyer. But its thanks to Bethesda that we have a modding community at all.
As Will Shakespeare said, "The first thing we do, lets kill all the lawyers." Quoted from: Henry IV, Act 4, Scene 2 - %&$! the Butcher
QUOTE(Klaiven @ Feb 5 2008, 11:22 AM)
I reply:
Spoiled children don't pay $50 for one's product. Adults do, and don't appreciate being told that they can't use the product as they see fit. Laws are tools, not morals. There is nothing wrong with using the Morroblivion tool, and the legal tools could have well been set aside for this particular case. No infringements were made as no materials were distributed. That the converter copies and modifies already owned content is not the same as uploading content.
To restrict mods is to restrict the value of the game. To restrict mods for such a pointless reason when the game itself is so incredibly bland (and therefore not worth the money) is what is at issue, and worthy of comment.
Spoiled children don't pay $50 for one's product. Adults do, and don't appreciate being told that they can't use the product as they see fit. Laws are tools, not morals. There is nothing wrong with using the Morroblivion tool, and the legal tools could have well been set aside for this particular case. No infringements were made as no materials were distributed. That the converter copies and modifies already owned content is not the same as uploading content.
To restrict mods is to restrict the value of the game. To restrict mods for such a pointless reason when the game itself is so incredibly bland (and therefore not worth the money) is what is at issue, and worthy of comment.
No, but spoilt children do complain that they haven't been given ALL they wanted for Christmas, even though you've been given more than most kids ever see in their childhood. That's what the community is doing at the removal of this mod - they've got thousands of mods out there to use, but because this one utility has been pulled they feel like Bethesda is in some way depriving them. Most developers don't even put out an SDK for their game.
Bethesda are just protecting their property and their own backs, which is something we can understand. Even though I'm sure they're grateful you've bought their games, they aren't willing to go under for a few thousand - or even ten thousand - modders online. I'm sure they probably even loved Morroblivion, especially those developers that worked on both games, and were sad to see it go - but sometimes you've got to do something that'll make a few people unhappy to get the best for yourself.
QUOTE(Klaiven @ Feb 5 2008, 11:22 AM)
I reply:
The editor is relatively easy to use until the new, TESIV, limit keeping mods affecting entire categories of variables from coexisting rears it's ugly head; THAT can be less than easy to deal with. Much fan-created mesh content was created outside of the editor and imported in, BTW.
The editor is relatively easy to use until the new, TESIV, limit keeping mods affecting entire categories of variables from coexisting rears it's ugly head; THAT can be less than easy to deal with. Much fan-created mesh content was created outside of the editor and imported in, BTW.
Well obviously ALL fan made meshes were created outside of the editor; the CS does not come with a bundled 3D modeller and there was, initially, no real support for importing models into a format that Oblivion could recognise. I agree that the Morrowind editor was easier to use, but that's for the sole reason that it was a MUCH simpler game, in terms of mechanics (random to-hit rolls are easier to work out than collision meshes) and in terms of graphics (flat low-res textures are easier to process than alpha-channelled, bump-mapped hi-res joy). Thus, Oblivion's editor MUST be more complex. I can understand how a water wheel works, it's simple, but I can't understand how particle accelerators work. They're different levels of complexity which require different amounts of knowledge and skill to understand.
QUOTE(Klaiven @ Feb 5 2008, 11:22 AM)
Thae game itself is dull asa rusty nail and not worth shelling out hard earned cash for. Wanting MW, which was, relatively speaking, a much cooler game despite lower level graphics, is very understandable. Getting that earlier game to work with the new graphics was a ream come true for many, which Beth decided violated it's EULA, despite no actual upload of materials from either game.
And Bethesda DID respond to fan criticism of Oblivion's Medieval/early-Gothic armour and world, and it's adoption of various fantasy tropes like ogres, trolls and mithril and responded with Shivering Isles, bits of which look like a souped-up version of the stranger Telvanni isles in Morrowind.
Yes, it costs a few extra quid, but it's well worth it if you care so much about having giant-mushrooms and non-Earthly creatures.
There is simply no legal necessity for this decision. Please stop pretending that there is.
It's not a violation of the EULA. They just keep using those words because, since the EULA can't be checked unless you install the game just to do so (or have thought of copy/pasting it into a file), they weren't likely to be contradicted.
I argued about Morroblivion and the EULA point by point with Gstaff, asking for comments and clarifications and answers; and instead of replying about my questions he simply linked to the Morrowind mod FAQ, which says that mods can't be made using elements from other games, and adding that it applied to Oblivion too.
So, it is not a violation of the EULA. It's a violation of the mod FAQ.
I argued about Morroblivion and the EULA point by point with Gstaff, asking for comments and clarifications and answers; and instead of replying about my questions he simply linked to the Morrowind mod FAQ, which says that mods can't be made using elements from other games, and adding that it applied to Oblivion too.
So, it is not a violation of the EULA. It's a violation of the mod FAQ.
Poor Gstaff is stuck regurgitating the BS being sent to him by Bethesda's uneducated lawyers.
I've lost respect for Bethesda, because of the corrupt lawyers. Thought I might include that also.
QUOTE(legrandxav @ Feb 5 2008, 10:45 AM)
This is the famous EULA. There's no explicit point to prohibit Morroblivion. Only one section shows that the use of other any executable wich modificate the contains is prohibited. So Wrye bash, OBSE, are illegal if you think like Bethesda but not prohibited.
QUOTE(EULA)
(d) Customized Game Materials shall not contain modifications to any other executable files;
No. Wrye Bash, OBSE, OBGE, OBMM and the like don't edit any executable files. Bash doesn't touch anything except plugins; OBSE only alters the run-time memory (i.e., not a file) and same with OBGE; OBMM does alter Bethesda materials but not executables (only the BSA files).
"Bethesda have given us better tools, more support and more leniency than most other development companies combined."
Whaaat??? You can't even reskin something or import a new mesh without third-party tools, which is pretty basic stuff. And the support has been practically non-existent.
There are plenty of games LESS moddable than this but it's nowhere near the MOST moddable, nor is it the best supported. That's just nonsense.
You ARE talking about Oblivion, right?
Whaaat??? You can't even reskin something or import a new mesh without third-party tools, which is pretty basic stuff. And the support has been practically non-existent.
There are plenty of games LESS moddable than this but it's nowhere near the MOST moddable, nor is it the best supported. That's just nonsense.
You ARE talking about Oblivion, right?
lol Bethesda GG GF HF and STFU lol
QUOTE(Super-Moose @ Feb 5 2008, 05:15 PM)
"Bethesda have given us better tools, more support and more leniency than most other development companies combined."
Whaaat??? You can't even reskin something or import a new mesh without third-party tools, which is pretty basic stuff. And the support has been practically non-existent.
There are plenty of games LESS moddable than this but it's nowhere near the MOST moddable, nor is it the best supported. That's just nonsense.
You ARE talking about Oblivion, right?
Whaaat??? You can't even reskin something or import a new mesh without third-party tools, which is pretty basic stuff. And the support has been practically non-existent.
There are plenty of games LESS moddable than this but it's nowhere near the MOST moddable, nor is it the best supported. That's just nonsense.
You ARE talking about Oblivion, right?
Yeah. That's my point - if you'd care to re-read my carefully chosen words.
There are about 99.99% of games that offer no modification ability and even when the mod communities develop their own tools, they receive no mention from the developers - who just churn out the game and forget about it; sometimes not even releasing patches to fix glaring errors in the game.
There are four companies I can think of (feel free to add more) that have packaged useful free SDKs on release, Epic, Bethesda, Valve and Bioware. Valve are more helpful than Bethesda - taking mods on and helping those people produce full games (e.g. Counterstrike, Garry's Mod, Day Of Defeat etc.), but even to mention fan mods in their website and blog is taking the issue infinitely further than most development companies, as SDKs make virtually no financial sense because the amount of sales you get from mod-fanatics is minimal compared to the money you get from selling it to those that play it through once with Vanilla settings.
Anyway, I'd say that making simple tools that allow pretty much any user to change the layout of the world in your game is pretty extensive, and being able to change the way that most objects function is pretty good in and of itself. Granted, it would be nice to have a complete array of tools released by Bethesda that would allow this kind of advanced modding ability, but they're in no way obliged to and it probably wouldn't make financial sense, and might even be legally risky, to do so.
Better than nothing, would have been quicker to type. 
(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;
-Does this mean in other words..
You make it they own it..can resell it..use your mod the way they like. And you don't get a dime for it???
-Does this mean in other words..
You make it they own it..can resell it..use your mod the way they like. And you don't get a dime for it???
I would like to add one more company which everyone seemed to forget about that gave us (me) a decent tool. Dunno which company is this? OH wait... it's freaking Blizzard !
WC3 editor! FTW (not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed I admit but it does it's job more then good enough)
Now Blizzard is smart, Bethesda isn't. EG: a lot of players that still play wc3 and tft like to play DoTa. My friend who wasn't as nearly as interested in wc3 bought the game after one round of it!
WC3 editor! FTW (not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed I admit but it does it's job more then good enough)
Now Blizzard is smart, Bethesda isn't. EG: a lot of players that still play wc3 and tft like to play DoTa. My friend who wasn't as nearly as interested in wc3 bought the game after one round of it!
QUOTE(batlham @ Feb 5 2008, 06:18 PM)
QUOTE(EULA)
(a) All Customized Game Materials created by you are exclusively owned by LICENSOR and/or its licensors (as the case may be) and you hereby transfer, assign and convey to LICENSOR all right, title and interest in and to the Customized Game Materials and LICENSOR and its permitted licensors may use any Customized Game Materials made publicly available to you for any purpose whatsoever, including but not limited to for purposes of advertising and promoting the Software;
-Does this mean in other words..You make it they own it..can resell it..use your mod the way they like. And you don't get a dime for it???
That's not Bethesda being tools or lawyer-brained, either. That just how copyright law works. For the Oblivion/Morrowind EULA to work differently would require Bethesda to release their content under some kind of Creative Commons or share-alike license, and it will be a cold day in some place warm before we'll see a for-profit game company taking that kind of risk.
Well, I asked a Morrowind native, Valen Dreth, currently residing in the Imperial prison, about this development. To see what HE has got to say about this;
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202239967.jpg
(click on image to enlarge)
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202239967.jpg
(click on image to enlarge)
Hah, that's great.
Oh, and:
"There are four companies I can think of (feel free to add more) that have packaged useful free SDKs on release, Epic, Bethesda, Valve and Bioware."
Try every company that has ever released an FPS (may be a slight exaggeration). ID, Crytek, DICE, etc.
"There are four companies I can think of (feel free to add more) that have packaged useful free SDKs on release, Epic, Bethesda, Valve and Bioware."
Try every company that has ever released an FPS (may be a slight exaggeration). ID, Crytek, DICE, etc.
This news hits a little hard, I agree with the site-mods (obviously) but it is a little sad. I hope that in the future they will decide let it go, Perhaps as their own?
First: sorry about my bad english.
Well i know nothing abaut game industry but really, it would be their best intrest (at least on pc) to encourage modding as much as they possibly can IMHO.
I know its aint make a financial sense at first perhaps, but we are talking abaut a series of games, wich case the more someone played with a game, the more likely to same person buy the next game of the series. I guess...
I played with Morrowind back, and while i dont quite liked it much without mods, it soon changed...
When it first became awaible i pre ordered Oblivion. Why? Simply I knew that it will be a ton of additional content for it from really talented people.
Basicaly the modding community ensured me that i will hawe a good time with the game...
So ppl thanks again for eweriones good work!
Well i know nothing abaut game industry but really, it would be their best intrest (at least on pc) to encourage modding as much as they possibly can IMHO.
I know its aint make a financial sense at first perhaps, but we are talking abaut a series of games, wich case the more someone played with a game, the more likely to same person buy the next game of the series. I guess...
I played with Morrowind back, and while i dont quite liked it much without mods, it soon changed...
When it first became awaible i pre ordered Oblivion. Why? Simply I knew that it will be a ton of additional content for it from really talented people.
Basicaly the modding community ensured me that i will hawe a good time with the game...
So ppl thanks again for eweriones good work!
*coughs* Sorry to repost, but I can't edit my post here, the updated image, showing Valen Dreth's disapproval is here;
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202243736.jpg
(click to enlarge)
((If a moderator could replace the link in my previous post with the one above, I'd be happy to see this post deleted ))
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202243736.jpg
(click to enlarge)
((If a moderator could replace the link in my previous post with the one above, I'd be happy to see this post deleted ))
I read everything, then went to the official forums and found this ...
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...post&p=11678080
There seems to be several differing opinions even among the Bethesda people on this converter program. I think the jury is still out. Maybe. I hope so.
QUOTE(EggDropSoap @ Feb 5 2008, 08:26 PM)
Yes. It's their IP, they own any and all derivative works. It's like most forums' rules: you're a guest, being allowed to play with their toys is a privilege and not a right, appreciate what's given or GTFH.
That's not Bethesda being tools or lawyer-brained, either. That just how copyright law works. For the Oblivion/Morrowind EULA to work differently would require Bethesda to release their content under some kind of Creative Commons or share-alike license, and it will be a cold day in some place warm before we'll see a for-profit game company taking that kind of risk.
That's not Bethesda being tools or lawyer-brained, either. That just how copyright law works. For the Oblivion/Morrowind EULA to work differently would require Bethesda to release their content under some kind of Creative Commons or share-alike license, and it will be a cold day in some place warm before we'll see a for-profit game company taking that kind of risk.
It's worth noting that things created using Beth IP do not become their property simply because you use their IP, though. It's a feature of the EULA of their software that content created with it belongs to them; presumably a non-TESCS .esp creator would exempt you from that restriction (as they didn't include a provision against reverse-engineering their file types), which would include Morroblivion. They're within their rights to demand you cease distributing mods based on Morroblivion, however.
QUOTE(TheTalkieToaster @ Feb 5 2008, 09:18 PM)
It's worth noting that things created using Beth IP do not become their property simply because you use their IP, though. It's a feature of the EULA of their software that content created with it belongs to them; presumably a non-TESCS .esp creator would exempt you from that restriction (as they didn't include a provision against reverse-engineering their file types), which would include Morroblivion. They're within their rights to demand you cease distributing mods based on Morroblivion, however.
Not quite, no. Making a derivative work of Bethesda's (or anyone's) IP always means that they own it. The Oblivion/Morrowind EULA is actually more liberal than this since it permits derivative works at all, so long as they are only made for the game from which the IP originally came.The clause in the EULA is only there to make it explicit that by allowing derivative works under limited circumstances, they are not releasing their normal ownership rights to the IP or to the derivative works.
QUOTE(EULA)
(g) Reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;
Nope, reverse engineering the file formats (part of the "Software") is covered.
QUOTE(EggDropSoap @ Feb 5 2008, 10:31 PM)
QUOTE(TheTalkieToaster @ Feb 5 2008, 09:18 PM)
It's worth noting that things created using Beth IP do not become their property simply because you use their IP, though. It's a feature of the EULA of their software that content created with it belongs to them; presumably a non-TESCS .esp creator would exempt you from that restriction (as they didn't include a provision against reverse-engineering their file types), which would include Morroblivion. They're within their rights to demand you cease distributing mods based on Morroblivion, however.
Not quite, no. Making a derivative work of Bethesda's (or anyone's) IP always means that they own it. The Oblivion/Morrowind EULA is actually more liberal than this since it permits derivative works at all, so long as they are only made for the game from which the IP originally came.The clause in the EULA is only there to make it explicit that by allowing derivative works under limited circumstances, they are not releasing their normal ownership rights to the IP or to the derivative works.
Are you sure? It seems a little bit odd, as it would mean any and all LOTR slash-fic on the internet is property of the Tolkein estate. I'm familiar with the idea IP owners can stop distribution (e.g. Games Workshop and the Damnatus fan-film) but not that they own it outright.
QUOTE
QUOTE(EULA)
(g) Reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or otherwise modify the Software, in whole or in part;
Nope, reverse engineering the file formats (part of the "Software") is covered.Fair enough there, I took software to mean 'software' rather than assets.
This is just some food for thought...
In the eyes of the law, software is pretty much the equivalent of a book. The code is the words that make up the book. A book cannot legally be translated into another language without the permission of the writer/copyright holder.
However
I suppose you could consider this tool the equivalent of Babblelfish or Google Language Tools as far as translation goes. It's kind of a grey area.
These technical legal aspects aside, Bethesda might want to protect this intellectual property as a means of preserving a possible profit to be made in the future (Such as a professionally created expansion pack for Oblivion. perhaps?).
I'm not angry with Bethesda, but man... I really would have liked to see where this Mod would have gone.
In the eyes of the law, software is pretty much the equivalent of a book. The code is the words that make up the book. A book cannot legally be translated into another language without the permission of the writer/copyright holder.
However
I suppose you could consider this tool the equivalent of Babblelfish or Google Language Tools as far as translation goes. It's kind of a grey area.
These technical legal aspects aside, Bethesda might want to protect this intellectual property as a means of preserving a possible profit to be made in the future (Such as a professionally created expansion pack for Oblivion. perhaps?).
I'm not angry with Bethesda, but man... I really would have liked to see where this Mod would have gone.
QUOTE(Narzhul @ Feb 5 2008, 04:37 AM)
I've read through the seven pages of comments here, and frankly speaking, you guys really do sound like angry, angry ungrateful children >_>
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
Seriously, what's with the exaggerated responses? You guys sound like Bethesda killed YOUR source of revenue.
No, but we didn't kill THEIR source of revenue. In fact, Morroblivion had the potential to increase their revenue. We're not being ungrateful, I think most people here, like myself, are concerned as to where Bethesda will draw the line at telling us what mods we can and cannot make.
QUOTE(Lord Slyther @ Feb 5 2008, 11:10 AM)
I've lost respect for Bethesda, because of the corrupt lawyers. Thought I might include that also.
As have I.
QUOTE(dikr @ Feb 5 2008, 02:42 PM)
*coughs* Sorry to repost, but I can't edit my post here, the updated image, showing Valen Dreth's disapproval is here;
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202243736.jpg
(click to enlarge)
((If a moderator could replace the link in my previous post with the one above, I'd be happy to see this post deleted ))
http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/images/1...-1202243736.jpg
(click to enlarge)
((If a moderator could replace the link in my previous post with the one above, I'd be happy to see this post deleted ))
LOL
QUOTE(TheTalkieToaster @ Feb 5 2008, 10:20 PM)
Are you sure? It seems a little bit odd, as it would mean any and all LOTR slash-fic on the internet is property of the Tolkein estate. I'm familiar with the idea IP owners can stop distribution (e.g. Games Workshop and the Damnatus fan-film) but not that they own it outright.
I'm certain. The reason Tolkien's estate can stop it is because they own the copyright on the work, which gives them copyright on derivatives as well. "Ownership" of IP is just having the government-granted right to tell other people what they can and can't do with it in public. For creative works, that's implemented by copyrights. I don't mean to put too much emphasis on the term "ownership" since it's just shorthand.
To be precise, Bethesda has copyright on all mods derived from their games. They don't really "own" it in a real sense, just in the sense that any derivatives that people choose to publish will have their copyrights taken from the modder and given to Bethesda by the government. Derivatives that people make without ever publishing aren't covered by copyright law, and normally would stay the "property" of the modder. Except, now that I think about it, the EULA goes beyond copyright law and makes the mod Bethesda's property even if the modder doesn't publish it anywhere... Interesting. So the EULA is both more permissive than copyright and less.
Of course, that last fact is materially irrelevant if the modder doesn't publish, but it's an interesting technicality.
This is RIDICULOUS! You hear me Bethesda?!? It's not like anyone is attempting to use copyright material from Morrowind to make money for themselves. We're simply loyal TES fans that wanna play the game in a way you guys weren't smart enough to come up with on your own. What is so wrong with taking all that we loved from TES3 and adding it to TES4? You guys are fascists or nazis, whichever you find more offensive.
I've been a Bethesda supporter faithfully for years. Regardless of the decision I've stuck by them.
Legal matters or not, this program could have brought A LOT of attention to Oblivion's re-playability.
Cutting off your nose to spite your modding fanbases collective face is craptastic.
Way to go guys. Thanks for spitting in our eye.
Legal matters or not, this program could have brought A LOT of attention to Oblivion's re-playability.
Cutting off your nose to spite your modding fanbases collective face is craptastic.
Way to go guys. Thanks for spitting in our eye.
@FaceinThesand
You said:
Bethesda are just protecting their property and their own backs
I reply:
With the major caveat that I am not a copyright lawyer, I nonetheless find it very hard to believe that controlling property rights to such a degree that one's own company's productions cannot be "cross-seeded", as it were, is actually needful for protecting them from outside utilization.
Would any sane judge really not be able to interpret a game company's allowance of letting it's *own* products be converged as not setting precedence for outside utilization of materials? This is a big difference from having an outside company appropriate materials, as the MOb converter never leaves the confines of Bethesda products. By the way the EULA goes, MOb technically produces materials which become Bethesda products, even if the converter itself might not be.
If the Bethesda legal structure is that shaky, maybe we should be wishing them to get BETTER lawyers in the future.
You said:
Bethesda are just protecting their property and their own backs
I reply:
With the major caveat that I am not a copyright lawyer, I nonetheless find it very hard to believe that controlling property rights to such a degree that one's own company's productions cannot be "cross-seeded", as it were, is actually needful for protecting them from outside utilization.
Would any sane judge really not be able to interpret a game company's allowance of letting it's *own* products be converged as not setting precedence for outside utilization of materials? This is a big difference from having an outside company appropriate materials, as the MOb converter never leaves the confines of Bethesda products. By the way the EULA goes, MOb technically produces materials which become Bethesda products, even if the converter itself might not be.
If the Bethesda legal structure is that shaky, maybe we should be wishing them to get BETTER lawyers in the future.
While I understand the basis on which Bethesda can make this claim, I do not quite understand the reasoning. If Bethesda had a long history of banning and being unfriendly toward the modding community, this may be more... accepatable. But Oblivion and Morrowind were hugely moddable games due to the fact that Bethesda actually released the tools to create it. I actually have MORE mod added content than original Bethesda content, especially since the modding community moves far faster than the Bethesda team does.
In terms of revenue, Morroblivion doesn't affect anything. Morrowind has turned into a bargain bin game, one that you can pick up for $5 at your local GameStop or on Ebay. Morroblivion didn't give away the Morrowind content, it just converted the existing ESM file into an Oblivion format. You already needed to buy a copy of Morrowind and install it; all it really did was merge the two games without any loss to Bethesda's income.
The more dangerous side I'm seeing is that now they're turning into the RIAA and MPAA. And we all know how ballistic they went over infringement of their IP.
In terms of revenue, Morroblivion doesn't affect anything. Morrowind has turned into a bargain bin game, one that you can pick up for $5 at your local GameStop or on Ebay. Morroblivion didn't give away the Morrowind content, it just converted the existing ESM file into an Oblivion format. You already needed to buy a copy of Morrowind and install it; all it really did was merge the two games without any loss to Bethesda's income.
The more dangerous side I'm seeing is that now they're turning into the RIAA and MPAA. And we all know how ballistic they went over infringement of their IP.
I am not amused...
Don't forget that these are, probably, the same ignorant lawyers who instituted the laughable "adult content" policy on the Bethesda forums. That policy is so awful that it is now widely ignored by the vast majority of users, and not truly enforced by the moderators.
Adult content mods, contrarily to Morroblivion, are actually directly and explicitely covered by the EULA.
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