25 pages is lil to mush to be entirely read..

But this is exactly what i've been trying to explain on my own...ofcourse i didn't know all the details but this was my point...that Bethesda had certainly something reasonable to forbid it ...and...this is certainly not the reason to start hate them...
And IMO really...of all huge mainstream developers they r really one of those that really care about their fans...already the fact that they created the Construction Set and let users to create mods...that sometimes could also mean almost a different game ...and not to mention that off all mainstream games...TES series is something that even some hardcore genre lovers could appreciate...

I guess you're right, and 100% agree about all of this post....still, it's a complete pity the whole Morroblivion issue....it could've benefit Bethesda too...

P.D: My first post as premium member ^^

@Benrahir - Congratulations, I'm glad to see another fan of my favorite game developer lending support to what I believe is the best TES site on the net. may we enjoy them both for years to come.

@htone - I don't really expect anyone that already understands the gist of this thread to read it all and it is really long so I guess I can't really expect anyone to. None the less, I appreciate the fact that you do understand and even more so that your trying to help others to understand as well.


You both deserve a cookie but since I'm all out you'll have to settle for a Kudos!

252

I don't understand...the made nexus etc take it down but the morroblivion.com site is still up, with the download...

i am not sure about this but..

i have been doing some reading on the project, an most plople says that morroblivion was never actually banned.. bethsoft just disliked it and told that to the author..
the morroblivion is moved from big sites like this, but if you do some surfing, it is possiable to get it..

It's about time! I knew that Bethesda would do something with Morroblivion. When i looked at the mod...''I got a bad feeling about this''. Though i din't downloaded the mod, because it was too much for me.

Wow. I mean wow. This thread has been a waste of time since page 9 or so.


>link removed<
The position of the site is clearly stated in the OP by Dark0ne, linking to the download site is not allowed.

Consider this a warning. Repost the link and I will come up with a final more permanent solution.

Buddah


EDIT: Wow.

Almsivi!

Well, someone has stated yet, that 25 pages are lot of stuff to be read, so I did a rather quick walkthrough .

If someone else here gave the here passed information yet, please feel free to remove this post at once


I have found some advice, that not only linking to the download, but also to the respective modder's site may conflict with the rules of tesnexus.com and of course I have not the least of a reason not to respect this.

What I *would* like is to give some *translation* from their homepage that may correct some errors underway on all sides, especially on the side of the critics as well. If this cannot pass, I think it might be * please don't take this as any kind of offense * better just to fairly close the debate on the subject so nobody can have any doubt or waste ones time with useless postings. To tell the truth, this post cost me half a night

I'm quite familiar with the Morroblivion issue, whilst I'm underway with translating essential information from the French language into German.

More than once it has been stated here correctly, tbat the problem with the Morroblivion converter tools is essentially, that Bethsoft itself weren't allowed to make use of transmitting at least part of original Morrowind stuff into an Oblivion Worldspace.

The modders *explicitly* deny, that - when it comes to some kind of public betatest or else - it will be necessary to convert any original material from Morrowind. They *explicitly* stress, that any public offering of converted material from Morrowind is respected illegal and unacceptable.

The original mod's aim is to build a completely and newly quested game play on Vvardenfell Island in the Oblivion World and at the time of the Oblivion Nirn Crisis, called Morrowind 3rd Era 433.

I wish to quote from FAQ which is published on the respective site, but *please* have an eye on the fact, that this gives then a translation from a German translation from a French original text that I *hope* to having understood well ;-)

The Original Question in French:



You may take this for a translation into something, which hopefully may be regarded as some sort of "English" text

"Q: You will convert all that Morrowind models?"

And the answer is explicit:

"*No* All Models will be recreated by the Morrowind 3e433 team or taken from other modders mods case they give their permission. There will be *no* distribution of any Morrowind ressources. The converter is (and will be; LotS) used just for the creation of the maps and to place the respective models in the right place."

To say it twice:

*There will be no necessity of converting any Morrowind based models*. Just the heightlines will be extracted and built into an Oblivion World Space. All other stuff will be a matter of questmodding and object replacement.

So if Bethesda Softworks decide not to like the Morroblivion converter engine, that has under all circumstances to be respected as part of their business. But that has nothing to do with what these modders *are going to do*

Finally to add this: There are in fact some Shredder Sites who offer some so called "Morroblivion Installations" or else by volumes of 6-8 GByte. Not only that these offerings are in deed completely illegal, there is not the least of a use in those downloads (except you are longing for some spy bot or other on your local box So hands off by all means!

Well. Enough for now.
I'd be glad, if I could have brought some additional clarity to this complicated subject

Regards

Lord of the Strings

BTW:

I cannot deny to feel a bit sad about the tone, in which Bethesda once startet on the topic. As far as I can tell, the french modders are as kind and loving friends of the ElderScrolls family as any. May be this a sort of language barrier?


@SoulReaver911


Well obviously the subject is a little sensitive. And in some sense I'd like to agree, but I cannot deny the feeling that some guys here haven't really understood the nature of the problem. It makes no sense to swirl some proposals in ones head how Bethsoft better should do their business Will anyone here pay the fee for them if it comes to a challange by a licensor of their material?

@mod: please fix me, if the term "licensor" is not correctly used in the sense: "the one who has the right to deny"
Bye for now

You have now doubt translated what is now their policy but that was not the original intent. They have altered it to be in compliance (or so they hope) with Bethesda's policies. When the program was released it stated clearly in it's readme the the intention was to convert Morrowind assets, be they Bethesda or player made, to the Oblivion engine for personal use. Bethesda doesn't want this to be done on any level and to allow any part of this would undermine their own policy. When they were informed by others of a similar intention to recreate those assets, those individuals got permission to do so. Just goes to show that informing them of your intentions before you act is the best way to go about these things. It matters not what their intentions are now, anything bearing the Morroblivion name will be disallowed because of prior actions. If they want acceptance from the big dogs they will have to change the name.

Ouch. I was being a moron.



Not to sound mockingly or spiteful in anyway Buddah, but I agree with LotS, the most permanent solution to stop doing stupid things (like I did) is to close this thread altogether.

I second that notion, i think this thread has run it's course and nothing new could really be offered at this point.

EDIT2: I have to correct another misunderstanding of mine: The converter will *not* be shipped with the mod. The mod will be shipped as .bsa and .esm. The converter will be used to create it. And it will contain the original heightmap of Vvardenfell.

EDIT: Sadly to say I've found, that my post above didn't stress one essential fact enough, so worm82p085's answer is based on an error ;-/

But before I come to that, please let me introduce myself in short

I'm no modder (although I've built a little island with a castle, a harbour and so on and gave it to my woodelf once. To tell the truth I have to confess, that my initial interest in these MO-tools (there are people left who believe Morroblivion to be a mod) was to get this island plugged into the Oblivion world for there is no hope for me to ever get this done twice. For technichal reasons this simply didn't work. My interest in the subject has changed meanwhile.

These days I'm walking through the net, filtering worldwide postings on the subject, gathering those collected information, edit them and if I'm ready with this give them to the public of my home site worldofplayers.de. May be translate them into English, if some site is interested in it. In this sense I'm simply aimed at strict documentation of facts, discussion and standpoints.

The main reasons why I've settled down my posting here were: The Topic is hot, people have heard about, have seen screenies and want to know, I believe they have a right to know and this site is a great place to give Information to a wider public (have a glance at the hitcount and you know what I mean. ;-)

I'm not going to tell anyone here what to do or to think and I'm sure most of you here have better knowledge of Elder Scrolls and creating mods for MW and OB than I will gain in the rest of my life.

@ Filtering:

Yes, it's unbelievable how much trash is posted world wide in the forums on the topic. A huge amount of that is posted by people, who simply cannot get into their heads, that they *cannot claim a right to have a software hosted on a site not owned by themselves*.

It's been said here but this you really can't say often enough: It's on the part of the host whom he like to invite. And if one doesn't like to host this or that software he is perfectly right not to do so. So, Dark One is not in any duty even to explain, but as he is an honorable man and a nice guy he does and even more invites us to comment on that. This is acknowledged thankfully and I hope I'm not too far off topic here


So, please take all this stuff in mind and throw it in the basket. Now we have some first light in the dark.

But it's not the only type of trash. On the other side people talk such strange things that there is a passage or something like that in Bethesda's Eula and this makes in consequence the MO tools illegal because the tool does something - or at least *can* do something - that is forbidden by the EULA itself. Please give me the right of being a little polemic, I love it, I found folks here are very humorous and there is really no offense at all

So "Meine hochverehrten Damen und Herren, Mesdames et Messieurs, Ladies and Gentlemen: *Please* hold your breath a short while ( but not so long that you get your heads red please and try, just try to imagine what would happen, if it were in fact possible, just possible, that by no *other* means than a certain passage in the one program's EULA of programmer B actually another program of programmer A could be turned into illegal stuff ... Just try ... "

This is a very general question and only in so far related to Bethesdas Problem with the lawyers of its licensor. What would happen if? To say it in short, I think you guess what I mean.

So take this other and related kind of trash as well and throw it into the next basket (the other one had been filled yet as you may remember)

Now you can see that there is a valuable discussion on a in my humble opinion fascinating and very complex matter, which for such a bare egg-head as mine turns into nothing else than a pure brain candy

There are more reasonable arguments under way.

E.g: There's a widespread opinion in the *scientific* community of the Informatics and Cybernetics, that a program in itself never can be "illegal" but only the things you do with it if ever. But this is nothing I want to discuss here, just quote them. We all know that politicians sometimes won't give too much for the word of a scientist, so we find examples, that there *are* illegal programs, but they are not illegal by themselves but by law

Another thing is standpoints.Often we find, that there are arguments for this and for that side, and the question is *not* who can legally claim to be right, but to say what one thinks about. Democratic politics are a well known (and in this sense much too often misunderstood) example I'm looking for such standpoints as well.

One of them sounds a bit like this: The Bethesdas are our friends. They gave to us an immense amount of fun and joy with their games and construction sets and if anyone tries to do them any harm, he has to talk with us as well (and if you have a very close look you can see this twinkling steel on their side). There you stand up you proud American guys and praise solidarity! Well said. The Bethesdas can be glad to have such friends as I've met here! Be sure you have friends here as well

I think I will document this as any valid and worthy information I have and will found on the topic. So beware, you may be quoted

Well. On top of this post I mentioned some error that I have to correct and it's mine, as I haven't stressed one point enough. Here is the respective post, so you don't have to scroll up



As I first read this I thought wow! Take that for granted and we don't know any more where we are talking about. But as I told you I've linked this post to some of "them" and in a very long and very friendly answer (it was my first post there and I was kidding a little) was hinted (among others), that I have mentioned - but not stressed enough the fact that the site where the quoted FAQ can be found is *not* the developer's site of the MO tools but the modder's site of the "Morrowind 3rdEra433" *modding project*.

Havelock said that ...


"Obviously he mixes up the Morroblivion *programme* and the Morrowind 3e433 *mod*. Morroblivion continues to convert Morrowind models. But they will not appear in the mod."

So here we are and not a centimeter ground has been gained. Sadly to say.

It may be of some additional interest, that he stated once more, that they are completely committed to national and international copyrights, but that *they* have no doubt, that the programs are legal at least under European legal terms and that they are convinced that they do nothing illegal using it and modding there gameplay in the here described form. They will do nothing that could hinder the distribution of the mod but of course it will be necessary to distribute the then actual version of the converter tools. What I can do is to give them a hint, that it would be a good idea to get rid of this "Morroblivion" and put the tools just into an neutral subdir like "utilities or something like that (possibly together with a then actual version of OBSE, which is needed and might be shipped with the packages as a whole; but this is something I and possibly no one by now can say.).

Last but not least I may add my personal opinion if this is of any interest that as there is no problem existing for Bethesda as long as they do nothing to support these tools it *seems* to be that the best action they can take is simply to do -- nothing;)

@ worm82075 : As far as I have understood, they never gave any support to a *specific* mod project ;-? And I'm not quite sure whether their claim to say which mod is legal distribution and which not isn't invalid in general but this only goes for the case in that assets of the game are distributed because no one has the right to distribute real parts and assets of the game, no matter whether they are converted or not.

Now if you were so kind and read up to this end I have to apologize for the very long post and thank you for your patience and interest.



Exit Lord of the Strings

Edit: changed "pride" to "proud" of course. Sorry everybody "Muahahaar" LotS

Way to support the modding community which is practically making your game twice as good free of charge. Hell, i can't imagine playing it without mods! True that Bethesda are the ones that made the game mod friendly, but a huge part of those mods balance the game and fix gamebreaking things like the horrid landscape, something that saves the developers a lot of work and increases the sales.

Thanks to mods like QTP, LandscapeLOD and other mods alike Oblivion's graphics look top notch 2 years after it's release. Other mods like Midas Magic and Mighty Magick, balance and bring diversity to the magic system. And Deadly Reflex for example makes melee combat a lot more challenging and interesting. What about all the arrow mods and bow mods that bring diversity in archery with a huge array of arrows and make a marksman character playable? All the player made dungeons, locations and quests can keep you coming back to Tamriel forever. And still there are so much other great mods that it will take me hours to mention all.

I believe that what Bethesda have gained from the modding community is a lot more than what they will (according to lawyers) lose from Morroblivion and giving modders more freedom would be a good way to thank the community which is keeping this game running. They don't do it for money, for kumos or ratings, they do it to make the best out of their favorite game and taking that away from them is the bussines equivalent of shooting yourself in the head for a pack of Doritos.

Way to read the thread

Wtf is wrong with the forums

From what I know, the law doesn't have to make sense or be logical. The law is there for reasons beyond that. I think that is what Bethesda is concerned about - the beyond. I am guessing that it was also a painful choice for them as well.

But I am thinking.... Why not sponsor it instead. They could support it the same way Blizzard supported DOTA which is a very popular WarCraft 3 mod.

They can probably draw a legal contract with the makers of Morroblivion stating that they can continue its production but under certain conditions.

Then again that aspect of the beyond is still lurking about. Who know what kind of legal loopholes this kind of contract can make.

Surely it's not within Bethesda's right to ban Morroblivion though. While they can legally (and must) forbid the tranfer of Morrowind assets into Oblivion, I would think that they cannot ban the program because technically it doesn't have to be used for that purpose (even if that is its only viable use). Just as it is legal to have limewire on your computer, or use it to download content which is not copyrighted, Morroblivion can probably be legally downloaded, as long as technically you state you do not intend to use it for the purpose of converting and using Morrowind .esms and .esps in other games (you could technically use the program for another purpose, like examining its code out of interest) and then it is unenforcable to prevent people from using it on their own computer.

Besides, Morroblivion is still up for download in various places now. The best thing for Bethesda to do is keep their noses clean and give a halfhearted but legally fulfilling attempt to block this mod. They can't be held liable for the actions of all their customers, and it is not within reason to expect them to purge Morroblivion from every website and PC.

Something like this just doesn't feel right. It seems like there's something that we're not being told.

What I feel(and my feelings usually go right), is that someone on the Morrowind project who is not on the Oblivion one due to being fired/let go/ etc. is causing the stink behind the scenes. Look at what Morrowind stuff is allowed into Oblivion and what had to be changed?

Morrowind Books is still the same name. No problems there.

Morrowind Ingredients was changed to Tamriel Ingredients. why?

What about Daggerfall? Memories of Daggerfall: Cybiades hasn't gotten any guff that I've heard of. Could it be the statute of limitations has run out on anyone raising a stink about these port overs?

Perhaps try a OblivionDaggerfall combo mod instead of the Morroblivion. In the process, include all the content you wanted to from Morrowind, but rename all content associated with it to Tamriel. Couldn't hurt to try, could it?

Or Tamrodyll. Take everything you've made for Morroblivion and just rename it Tamrodyll. This might avoid any conflicting legal issues.

The projects you describe were made in the Oblivion CS using Oblivion content or entirely new content (certainly the case with Morrowind Books, Morrowind Ingredients, and Cybiades). Bethesda's problem is with people porting the ACTUAL content from Morrowind - its meshes, textures and .esp data.

Honestly, I don't understand why it's such a big deal; most Morrowind meshes are low in detail compared to Oblivion, the textures have no normal maps, and anything from that engine would tend to look crappy in Oblivion even if you were allowed to port it. (Yes, I tried Morroblivion and gave it up in disgust.)

Most Morrowind content that's advanced enough to be worth porting is from mods anyway, and as long as it was made custom (rather than based on Morrowind meshes/textures) its original creator can do as he/she likes with it with regard to Oblivion.

well there are people who made updates to the mod... well a mod of a mod... still think all this is crazy... but... there is an alternative which i dont think is illegal....yet.
its not as great as morroblivion but better than nothing! http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16976 to be honest i liked it but it lacked the morrowind feel... reply if it is illegal though but it uses oblivion meshes and textures so it shouldn't...

this not illegal .. Deus.. they make everythng them selves.. so no.

and again thanks for the help anyway.. see you in morrowind,,

Uhuhu, this thread never seems asleep

As there might be some misunderstanding and the thread is growing and growing, please let me recall:

There is no mod project "Morroblivion"; what is known as "Morroblivion" is just a pair of converter tools, which were written to *develop * a mod called Morrowind 3E433. In the beginning there were dreems indeed to spare the creation of models and so on and just use the - possibly retextured - MW models. One also can state, that there's no *legal* problem with the tools (at least not outside the US) The problem is with Beth's * own licensors *. They get in trouble, if *they* do anything to support this tool (and discussion at the OFs is a way of support). So I have understood the matter at least.



For Bethsoft this is a nonoption: The problem is not with the "Name" but the models and so on.

And for the French modders it's a non-option, as there is meanwhile an unanimous opinion that it makes hardly any sense to come out in 2009 or /10 with a Oblivion mode presenting the models and technique of 2002 Morrowinds


No doubt. You would be surprised if you had a look on the growing list of Oblivion modders and groups who are ready to permit the use of their material thus supporting 433.


As far as I have understood, this is exactly what Beth are doing for months now. But they needn't block anything, as I stated above. They just keep out.

Cheers.

_SNIP_

I'd rather let it be, but not a moderator. The thing is that if it only has something very small that looks like it has been converted, I honestly wouldn't want to cause a fuss over it, if it's something larger, I'd talk about it with the author to confirm, if it has been converted and then ask if (s)he'd be willing to re-do the textures/meshes him/herself to avoid any possible problems with big bad Beth and if the author isn't capable of making the changes, you could help to search for someone who can and has the will to do it. I hate to see us losing good(thinking he/she is a good one since you did say it was big and well known mod.) modders like JQ due to legal problems with Beth.

P.S. If it really is a big and well known mod, in some sense I find it hard to believe people wouldn't have already confronted the author considering tha mount of 'hunters' the official forums(no doubt some of them are here aswell.) have to get rid of any and all mods that might be converted/copyrighted.

_SNIP_

There is a beg by Beth not to support the converter and some sites second this in friendship. I don't see any need to comment about that

If you are curious, you may google.

As for the copyright: it's a good way and respected in the community to ask the respective owner of rights if there is any doubt whether you are allowed to make use of something or not. That's all. Just be gentlemanlike, and all is well (and gentle*woe-man* alike of course )

If he won't answer I would take this for a lack of interest, if he hasn't mentioned the subject out in his Readme. Unfortunately, the Morroblivion ban, due to some copyright discussion, has moved people to publish there material anonymously, because they don't won't to be identified and so far give away any copyright for the best of others.




Lord of the Strings

€dit.
Is this usual? Thanks for the kudos. I'm just telling what's going on.