Okay, constructive and productive. The problem with Galadrielle's process is that it requires the Oblivion construction set to complete the Import and that is where the breach of EULA takes place. If she could just get her program to do all the work without having to use the CS then Bethesda could not really complain as they don't have control over someone else's program. However as UQForgotten so eloquently said they are bound by threat of lawsuit to take action where they do have control and legal license claim, The Oblivion Construction Set. If the CS can be removed from the equation then upon asking them (have to do so at this point) Bethesda, may not object to it's use, but could still not openly sanction it's distribution. The best we could hope for is for them to look the other way. It's a shame she did not have more support in the beginning, if she could have gotten her mod to that point before Bethesda took notice then the outcome may have been very different. It would have also been helpful to correspond with BethSoft so that they could have pulled a few PR tricks that made it seem as if they were planning this all along, like they seemed to do with Silgrad. All water under the bridge now. Like you say I hope Galadrielle is not so disheartened that she stops developing this program, if for no other reason than to apply it later on for adaptation to another purpose.

That is just my opinion and I could be wrong.....(tip toe around sleeping Wabbajacks)

The process to complete the import is a manual job made on the (pre)converted file by the user. It's independant from the tools. In that case it is the user who is running against the EULA, first already by using Morrowind materials (contained in the half-converted file ) into Oblivion.

So they can have "legal action" against the user who is performing that operation, but not on Morroblivion tools which distribute no Bethesda owned materials.

As analogy, what Bethesda is doing on Morroblivion, is like if they were asking website to remove Nero Burning Rom software from download sites because it allows to make illegal copy of Oblivion.

If there is an EULA breach, it is what user are doing with the converter ( and not even depending of where you live )
Distributing the converter does not breach any EULA. So they should not state so by using confusion.
( The converter tools are also designed to work on NON-Bethesda materials, such custom meshes, custom maps for examples. )

A correct approach in my opinion from them to Community websites would have been something like ( sorry for the bad english in the example but it's not my primary language, and not even my secondary ):



Well something in that idea, that is clear and not misleading like saying that Morroblivion tools are illegal to be hosted.
That is just what I'm not happy about., about legal confusion on purpose.

And to precise, I'm not attempting to make any "drama" or alike. I just wanted to add my 2 cents
I should better waste keystroke to do some coding

Well, if it weren't for the CS and the huge number of mods that came out because of it, I'd have discarded Oblivion into my Recycle Bin long ago. I finished the MQ nearly 1 1/2 years ago, and blew through the DLC's within a few weeks.

Yet here I am still playing it, and my Data folder has more than doubled in size thanks to player-made mods, which are often far better made than Bethesda ones IMO. At this point in time, pretty much all of my PC's equipment is player-made; only Quest Items are Bethsoft made (since I can't get rid of them).

In short, if they get rid of the CS for PC, then there's no real reason to get it for the PC. I'm fairly certain Oblivion would run much better on my 360, but the mods are what make PC games seriously competitive with console games.

But I have to say, even if they don't include the "real" CS, undoubtedly players will make their own mods for any future games using their own tools, although this would likely be inefficient compared to using the real CS.

Intellectual property is nonsense, and provokes ridiculous copyright laws to come to fruition, which stamps out the potential creative expression of people like the creator of Morroblivion and other authors making content for it. I hope these people continue to create content for Morroblivion, I hope they expand it, I hope they defy Bethesda's corporate hogwash by uploading there content to torrent trackers.

They can't articulate a single rational explanation that would justify this, to hell with them.

Dark, was this an official "cease and desist" letter or simply a recommendation to remove the tool?

I don't see how Morroblivion is a violation of anything, legally. Sure they can request anything, and as a webmaster I wouldn't recommend going against them as discussion of the TES Nexus might be banned at their official forum. But there doesn't seem to be any legal merit to their request. At best it facilitates violation of a EULA, but then again so does NERO Burning ROM because it allows people to make entire copies of Morrowind. Morroblivion itself doesn't distribute any files from Morrowind, I've checked it personally.

I agree with you all. I think it is a shame to shut down Morroblivion.

However you are all missing the point.

Morroblivion represents a danger to Beth...Yes it does

It is a tremendous opportunity to extend considerably the life of Oblivion & Morrowind.

Let's talk about timing for a minute:

Sooner or later Morrowind and all the quests of Morrowind will be in Oblivion. And much more.

Let's say the community works hard and this happens in a year or two.

Let's say Morrowind in Oblivion give an additional year of gaming pleasure (at the very least)

Let's say Beth launches a new Elder Scroll in two years from now.

Let's say the new Elder Scroll is more Oblivion like rather than Morrowind.

Then Beth may (I say may because I don't believe they do) have a problem and this Morroblivion may jeopardize their launch.

This is the very reason they want Morroblivion dead...

In fact Beth wants to preserve their business model...

Let's do some math now:

Morrowind cost 10$ in a year or two Oblivion will cost 10$. But in two The Elder Scroll V will cost 60$.

So if Oblivion + Morowind provide a better gaming experience than The Elder Scroll V for 3 times less money what do you think it's going to happen to the sales of The Elder Scroll V...Not to mention the fact that most of us already have Morrowind & Oblivion...

Personally I think fans will still buy The Elder Scroll V...I know I will. I also think Beth can pull off an Elder Scroll V better than Morrowind plus Oblivion put together. But still there is a risk. This is this very risk Beth wants to avoid.

Hmm, I don't think so MasterAub. Why would Beth make the effort in the first place to add a CS with the game if they don't want people to expand on the life of the game by making mods? It's the source of the TES popularity. And there are plenty of big projects around which expand vastly to the game. This is a specific case for them, so much is clear.

good question...

by the way I am prepare to be wrong.

but there is a difference between making mods (even huge ones) and the risk of recreating an entire game in another.

Morrowind is the epithome of RPG, Oblivion is a great Hack & Slash with some RP.

The two together might be the Ultimate dream for a players...and not one you can easely bit...

I think the risk is minimum but still it is there...

my 2 cents of course

Where it is possible to familiarize with an official position of Bethesda on this question?
On what's concrete positions of the EULA the Company refers?
Sorry for my English =)

It is somewhere in this very thread...Feel free to scan for it...

The closest we have come to an official explanation is

"There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own."

Now maybe Dogsbody is blowing smoke, but taken at face value, and I see absolutely no reason why we should doubt him/her. This basically says the problem lies in third part licensed material used by Bethesda in one of the games. We can't be sure for instance that the problem is with Morrowinds assets or with Oblivions assets. Both games use extensive third party software integrated into the executables and the BSA's.

If any third party provider objects to their assets being used the Bethesda as the publisher has to respond.

We all would like a best of both world. Morrowind's content inside Oblivions better quality game engine. However, the only people who can effectively pull that off is Beth.

It serves no one calling them names or urging commando style illegal download sites.

It is a shame to lose Morroblivion, but lets not forget that thanks to the CS and the dedication of modders we have 20000 + mods to use for the game.

I also wonder if given time and cooler heads a compromise might yet be found, which will allow the utility to return.
I've read a few post in the TES from official moderators and the tone suggest that they are as sad as we are at the loss.

So the real question to emerge from this is this. How much do you want a Morrowind?oblivion crossover. And by how much I mean money. Perhaps if we talk constructively about what a Morrowind Revisted might contain, we can perhaps shift the focus on to the idea that this as a thing many user want and a clear market opportunity.

Morroblivion was a great utility and its loss is deeply felt. But for those who claim the loss of a CS would have no effect on the modding community, I despair.

Losing Morroblivion is a sad, Losing the tool that made 20 000 mods possible would be devastating.

How nice. I bet the original creators of Morrowind and Oblivion would all love to forfeit any and all claims to any form of ownership and profit from their creations and get to work putting together TES:V for you, all for free, just because they love you so much. They could scrounge a living off of alms and charity. There's pretty decent food over at the homeless shelters I heard. Yep, who needs intellectual property eh?

Intellectual property and copyright law, however little you like it or not, is there to prevent people from stealing other people's hard work. Want to guess where the Morrowind devs get their paychecks from? Yep. You and all the rest of us who paid actual money for the game. Free file sharing, and a seriously decreased income for all original artists/writers/programmers, is the sad but unavoidable consequence of removing all forms of intellectual property. How many people would pay money for a product if they knew they could easily get it elsewhere for free, without fear of legal repercussions? Given a little insight into human nature I'd have to say: not many. Too many of us are too greedy by nature and will always go for the cheapest (=free) option when given a choice.



Because Bethesda might not be the original owners of all the content contained in Morrowind. Due to license agreements giving them the right to include third party, non-Bethesda owned, content in Morrowind (and Morrowind only), they might be legally bound by the same agreements to enforce that said content does not get used in ways that aren't explicitly covered under those agreements. The EULA is just a legal tool for Bethesda, giving them control over content created for and used in their games, that they can put to use to help them uphold the requirements of the original license agreements between them and the actual owners of any third party art or sound assets.

I think more people need to realise that Bethesda doesn't necessarily own, first hand, everything in the products they sell (or, rather, sell us licenses to use), thus Bethesda can't just do anything they want with it without the explicit consent of, and license from, the original art, sound and programming asset owners.




Also, as a general observation, I'd like to add that we in the modding community are probably overestimating our importance in the grand scheme of things. The real money is in copies sold, not how long copies are used. A paying customer is a paying customer in Bethesda's eyes. And the vast majority of paying customers, xBox and PC combined, can't, don't or won't use mods. Given this I think we should all be a little more grateful that Bethesda even bothered to go through the (legal and otherwise) trouble of including/releasing a construction set along with their last two Elder Scrolls games in order to satisfy a minority market share.

Cheers, UQF

UQForgotten is on to something here. I mean.... morroblivion is essentially just a converter. We do not download files converted with it nor morrowind.bsa files right?

How can they ban a converter? It's an equivalent of banning burning nero rom since it can make illegal copies of both oblivion and morrowind.

Dunno ,anyone from the legal field can clarify this? If so I see no reason why this mod shouldn't be returned and hosted here. (if there's no illegal complications that is...)

You're not getting my point correctly.

It is *NOT* up to Bethesda to allow third party content, that Bethesda doesn't own and only has license to use in Morrowind, to be used in Oblivion. They may have a legal obligation, as per license agreements with these original third party asset owners, to stop any unauthorised use of textures, sounds, meshes or other assets in any other products than Morrowind (for which they originally acquired a license to use it in.)

*IF* Bethesda knowingly allows its customers to break this license agreement these third party asset owners may have legal grounds to sue Bethesda for willfully neglecting to enforce these license restrictions. So Morroblivion should stay off of TESNexus, lest we risk providing third party licensors grounds for a copyright or breech of license agreement lawsuit against Bethesda.

Now let's just forget about the whole Morroblivion thing, ok? It's a "toy" we're not supposed to be playing with and that's that. Let's not risk pulling Bethesda into costly legal troubles just because we, like spoiled kids, want to play with our "toys" and won't take a stern "no!" for an answer. They're *NOT* going after Morroblivion just to piss us off or because of some diabolical market scheme. They're obviously doing it because it represents a substantial, most likely not financial but rather a legal, risk to them.

Cheers, UQF

It is important to understand the difference between a utility like Nero which can copy various files, which may be used for legal or illegal copying from Morroblivion which has only ONE purpose, to transfer files from one game to another.

The fact that Bethesda distribute both games is causing some of you to confuse the legal status of these products.

If Morrowind had been released by Sony and Oblivion by Bethesda, you would all I suspect recognize that transferring assets from one to another would be in clear breach of copyrights.

Legally MORROWIND and OBLIVION are different entities with there own contractual agreements. It doesn't matter if the publisher/distributor is the same.

As an example consider something like Havoc physics.

The way both games work is different because Havoc is handled differently. This is because they use different software to do so. That software is not owned by Beth.

They licensed it's use. In effect they borrowed it. The contracts for Morrowind and Oblivion are different.

Beth have only paid for the newer Havoc engine for Oblivion. Not Morrowind. If Beth want to use that engine with Morrowind they would need to pay for it. It is a commercial asset. Allowing all past incarnations of a series to be updated freely impinges on the Havoc Engine creators ability to insist on a fair price for their product.

This is just one example. Countless other examples exist. Look at the credits for both games. they are extensive.

How's that working out for you? Indignation and mockery?

Human nature? I'll leave the philosophy up to you, I'd advise that you leave the practicality up to the millions of people who download all forms of media on a daily basis, usually illegally. From the VHS tape to the first MP3 player, it seems mankind's innate quality of greed has done nothing but expand the distribution of media and build colossal industries that pander to our entertainment needs, thank goodness for greed! Yet, we're all still so worried about companies going bankrupt overnight, and that poor clerk at Gamestop or Blockbuster that loses his job or gets a pay cut.

Please, if anything, the free distribution of media has done nothing but bloat the entertainment industry with more money, so implying that Bethesda is going to go bankrupt by not defending their product with oppressive copyright laws is ridiculous, the very spirit of copyright law seems to be lost on the average joe. Regardless, I'm not even suggesting that Bethesda should forfeit claims to the copyright, I'm saying they, like most corporations, they are taking advantage of ridiculous copyright laws, abusing ill-conceived laws that were pressed on our governments by powerful lobbyists.

What's the saying, only the thief is worried about being stolen from? You say copyright laws exist to protect innovators from intellectual theft, I say that was the original idea, although its not being practiced correctly. All the while, we forget about the public domain, which in my opinion, Morroblivion falls under. Its a third party program that merely facilitates that transfer of creative content from one directory to another. Perfectly legal, at least it should be.

Though, I suppose this conversation is pointless, people will put this on trackers, people will build mods for this, and Bethesda will probably join the legal bandwagon, with threats of the CS being taken away and all sorts of scary ultimatums, all idle threats, all hogwash.

Correct me, but EULA which is the agreement between the user and BethesdaSoftworks does not contain the rules regulating use of resources from other software - products for creation of New Materials. As well as there are no at present other agreements forbidding that use.
However, being the legal owner on a software product TES III BethesdaSoftworks can forbid use of resources of this software - product for the purposes which have been not coupled to creation of New Materials for TES III (for example, creation of New Materials for TES IV).
But BethesdaSoftworks have no right to forbid creation of programs or the utilities allowing an opportunity of use of resources from TES III for other purposes as rights BethesdaSoftworks as the legal owner are broken with the fact of use of resources, but not the fact of creation of utilities or programs.
It means, that BethesdaSoftworks have the right to forbid publication mods for TES IV which use materials from TES III, but have no right to forbid creation and publication MorrOblivion and other utilities with similar opportunities.

As to use of resources from other software - products are legal owners of these software, but not BethesdaSoftworks can forbid only.

Sorry for my English

I think you're missing the point why Bethesda is trying to stop Morroblivion. It isn't about Bethesda oppressing us or concocting some evil mastermind scheme to milk more money out of us. They are trying to stop it to legally protect themselves from third party licensors possibly filing lawsuits against them for contract breaches and/or failing to uphold licensing agreements.

As for your comments about copyright and how ridiculous you think it is... Well, ask any of my semi-professional musician friends what they think of copyright laws and people who breach them. They may be artists but they are by no means rich or leading a very glamourous life. In fact, they are getting paid less than most other people I know these days. And if you're as dissatisfied with the current copyright legislation and the major entertainment corporations as you say you are, you really ought to turn your back on the industry as a whole in protest. Stop buying the music. Don't play their games. Don't go to the cinema. But if you do want all that music, those games and the films then you're going to have to play by the rules that the creators/artists/production companies set.

In my opinion copyright law, flawed as it may be, has a vital purpose for every artist, intellectual property owner, game designer etc, large and small, in the entertainment industry. It's there to protect people's hard work from being used without proper and fair compensation. Without it life would be even harsher for every little "Joe Average" artist out there. I'm getting so tired of constantly hearing people say that copyright law only serves the big corporations.



See dawson.tom's excellent posts. He eloquently explains the reasoning behind why it isn't legal to convert Morrowind content into Oblivion.

Also keep in mind that (like he says) you, I and everyone else merely have licenses to use Morrowind and Oblivion. It doesn't mean that we own the data. We have a right to use it only as per Bethesda's (and its licensors) terms, and in this case Bethesda needs to uphold and honour its agreements with those third party licensors that provided Bethesda with various assets for these two products. The price, if they don't, could be a costly and damaging lawsuit and/or possibly damaged relations with other companies that Bethesda are planning to rely on for licensed technologies in future products.





Excellent posts, dawson.tom!

Cheers, UQF

As far as Morroblivion goes, it was indeed designed for the specific purpose of converting the Morrowind ESM into an Oblivion ESM for use, just as Nero and other software was designed for copy legitimate CD's. Morroblivion could also have theoretical other uses however, if one were to create an entirely new game that uses the same ESM file format as Morrowind for indexing then it would be converting that ESM with no effect on real Bethesda property.

That of course relies on Bethesda not owning the rights to the ESM file format, which is a likely possibility. But if they don't, they can't block an application that can be used for other purposes that do not involve the infringement of Bethesda intellectual property.



Copyright laws need to be revised in light of the growing influence of the internet. Bethesda is attacking a converter that does nothing more than convert existing data while they're losing millions to software pirates that can get both games and the DLC's for free through the use of torrents or warez. As many have said before, if Morroblivion INCLUDED the original Morrowind.esm files with it for conversion, then it would be an issue since they're distributing copyrighted files. But the converter itself doesn't cause any trouble unless the user tries to convert the ESM's with it (admittedly its reason for existence) in which case it becomes a violation of that user's EULA.

And many of the EULA's get out of hand anyway. The iTunes EULA expressly forbids the use of the program in the construction or design of weapons of mass destruction. I realize that Apple's just trying to cover all of its legal bases here, but I really can't see how some Iranian or North Korean nuclear scientist could use iTunes to design a WMD. It's just a pointless warning that allows Apple to sue anyone whom they think has violated this particular part of the EULA.



In terms of raw cash revenue, Bethesda does benefit from releasing the CS to the public. Were I given a choice between two competent games, I'd definately choose the one that has more modding potential, and the CS greatly eases this. More and more games today are releasing mod tools and built-in mod support for their games even if a modding community does not develop. It generally costs nothing to provide (since the software's already been developed) yet has to potential to greatly increase revenues.

In terms of play length, longer playing games ingrain themselves more in a person's mind, and makes the person like the game more. This might be irrelevant in a single game series, but in a multi-game series like TES, keeping people interested until the next game comes out provides benefits since it keeps the fanbase engaged without letting them wander to other titles.

As long as I'm playing Oblivion, I'm not playing other games, so I'm more likely to pay attention to and remember Oblivion than other games. And one way to extend the amount of time I play is by adding new content that I want to utilize. Obviously, an easy way to do this is to let the community generate its own content, and releasing the CS would be a great way to boost the modding communtiy due to its ease of use and integration.

I think the .esm doesn't pose the biggest legal issue here.

It's the meshes, textures and/or sounds that are probably the biggest legal problem for Bethesda. It's entirely possible (without having scoured the Morrowind credits) that certain parts of those assets originate from third parties, and are used by Bethesda under a Morrowind exclusive license. By converting those over to a format readable by Oblivion's engine those assets have, in breach of license agreements between Bethesda and other companies, crossed over their boundaries of legal use into another Bethesda product.

Those content licensors may not be too happy to see their IP (or derivatives of their IP) being used freely, without their consent, in another product without getting a slice of the earnings or some form of compensation. Bethesda most likely needs to strategically ensure that they have watertight protection against lawsuits and thus can't allow a tool such as Morroblivion to exist. (And certainly can never allow it to be discussed on their forums!)



As for the CS, I fully agree that it's a competitive strong point for Bethesda, both in Morrowind and Oblivion. Still, if the Bethesda management feels that the legal risks of allowing us to tamper with the (partly licensed) content of their games begin to outweigh the competitive edge that a construction set will give their products they actually might consider pulling it. Which would be a devastating shock to the community off course...

There's still no final word on the possiblity of a CS being shipped with Fallout 3.

Cheers, UQF

If you wish to avoid any and all legal issues, then what need to be done is the following:

Use the Oblivion CS, create FROM THE GROUND UP, the land of Morrowind. Yes, recreate the meshes, textures, cities, lands – but you must do it using the Oblivion CS, and NOT a converter tool. You’d have to recreate the “Colovian” armor, the Bonemold armor – just about everything (with the omission of crossbows and spears, as the Oblivion CS doesn’t have animations for those weapons and can’t be edited).

Now, knowing that Oblivion takes place a few years after Morrowind, and the Naverine is gone now, the only reason to visit Vvanderfell (Morrowind) would be just to immerse yourself into the setting. You’d need to make subtle changes so you’re not fully copying “copyright” material (just to cover all your bases). Like ash storms would probably be non-existent with the blight cured – things like that.

But this can be done in this fashion. All you’re doing is using Morrowind as a reference but creating a new “cell” for Oblivion (which would probably be around a gig to download (or greater)).

Elys you are much to modest, your third language English is impeccable compared to many people who claim it as a first. Good post, I have to agree that they could have gone about it differently. Still doesn't change the bottom line though.

09chchin You could not be more right about the importance of the CS, especially considering that if it did not exist then neither would this conversation, these forums or any of the great people that continue to perpetuate and expand all that we hold dear.

MasterAub, People sharing my point of view are coming out of the woodwork. You have reminded me of a theory I posted a while back.
Wrap your noodle around that.(if your noodle is big enough follow the link back to the source and read the whole post)

UQForgotten That was beautiful man, you hit the nail on the head time after time. If I had just half your eloquence and a quarter of your tact I probably would not have had my ass handed to me earlier in this thread.

Kudos all around and thank you all for reminding me of what I had forgotten, that the people of this community are generally decent and like minded. Also I apologize to all the decent and like minded people in this community for thinking so little of you as to assume you could be corrupted or otherwise tainted by a few loud mouth malcontents bent on bringing Bethesda to it's knees.

Having said that, just let me add one finite statement before I leave you with another theory. This is not disputable and is just plain fact.

In the entire history of the gaming industry one standard has endured throughout. Countless precedents are logged all over the country and lead all the way to the supreme court. It has always been expressly forbidden to use the actual assets (intellectual property) from any game to create any new content without the express written consent and(since 2004) monetary compensation(should they so seek it) of the Intellectual property owners in question. No allowances and No exceptions, period.

Now that wasn't me talking that is what I gathered( in my own words) from the Copyright Act of 1976, amended to Oct of 2007, a 1300+ page document that has more cross references than the entire Wiki Encyclopedia. It is mind boggling the amount of subterfuge you have wade through to in order find exact wording. That is why I could not provide a quote from that document. I have been studying it for quite some time now and I think I got a handle on good portion of the article.

Isn't the Freedom of Information Act awesome. You can also look up copyrights filed at the US copyright office on that site as well. It's a shame no one has followed Woody's example and made a Copyright Law for Dummies book. Come to think of it, perhaps they have. Will try to find it.

Ok enough ranting already, I will leave you with this final thought.

What if Bethesda's true motive is to protect something more valuable than Morrowind and Oblivion put together. If I were the head of a major software developer and innovator of a modding phenomenon, I would be very remiss to give up an almost endless source of feedback and creative possibilities not to mention a very large source of potential future employees. No software developer has ever been closer to their costumers or provided more support for a release(without charging you continuously). Bethesda will do every thing in their power to keep the immaculate conception that is the history making TES modding revolution alive, by playing parent to it and keeping us honest and worthy of their association so that we can be a template for TES games to come. Known to many is Bethesda's mission statement to innovate and lead the industry. Known to few however is the fact that BethSoft is a fair practices company and that means that unlike Nintendo they allow individuals to retain intellectual property rights within their company as well as stock options. I would not surprise me in the least if the head programmers there were major stock holders. Bethesda prides it self on being innovative and having a 20+year reputation to back it up, they will not allow that reputation to be besmirched by anyone and least of all at the hands of their own creation. When I think Bethesda I don't think of a big heartless corporation. All I see is the programmers that spent many off the clock hours 8-9 years ago to make the Morrowind construction set possible, something accounting just couldn't budget at that time. If it were not for those guys hard work and dedication none of us here would know the joys playing TES MODs let alone making them. The modding community is their creation not some faceless cooperation. Many of the people here in this community are not so different from those guys and I think that was the whole idea. So the way I see it You can either go down in the pages history as being part of something great or you can reside in the footnotes of history as part of the few that got trampled underfoot by the masses rushing towards an ever growing and promising future. I've made my choice. How about you?

xenxander your timing could not be better(you posted just before I proof read my post). Thats a good idea, so good in fact that it is already a well established mod, with it's very own site and has been given the green light by Bethesda. So speak of the devil, now if your a modder here is your chance to be part of history and part of a project that will probably never fall apart. Just follow the link in my sig to Silgrad Tower and stake yourself a claim to a piece of Morrowind in Oblivion. If you don't have any personal problems with Razorwing and your a pretty good modder with a stead fast dedication to the overall goal then more than likely you will be asked to join the main team.

Claims & Coordination
No prior experience needed, just claim & get started and let us know if you have any questions whatsoever.
Don't forget to download the modding esm (under 'How do I mod for Silgrad Tower' in the release thread) before starting to mod.

I think nobody in this community is more organized than these guys and I know that no one else is more dedicated.

Thanks go to Razorwing and all those at Silgrad for making sacrifices and working hard to achieve their dreams, that we may enjoy the fruits of their labor.

Well, Worm. You earned your kudo right there.
That post must have take quite some time.
And colors! COLORS!

The thought of Beth wanting to merge the TC's gives me hope.

Indeed he earned a kudos from me as well. I wouldn't think anything would be merged. Daggerfel was randomly generated so there was no actual 'definite' landmass, except for the storyline which concluded (more or less).

And as each game is independent (except for that the effects are chronologically subsequent) it’s also a financial decision that if you want most of the story and gameplay, buy the other games *laughs*

worm82075 I managed to wrap my noodle around your theory and that was a long one

I do believe this morroblivion thing is more than just a "not so obvious" EULA issue. I believe your theory has some merit.

I am just a fan and I hope for the best. In this spirit I hope TES V will encompass the whole of Tamriel...

In the meantime have a nice week-end

Please, call me Worm. You are all too kind, but I thank you. Since I now have your ear, let my expand on my theory just a bit to cover what has not been said.

Many people have asked themselves and others "why did Bethesda stop making patches for the oblivion engine so far away from the release of the next installment?". Given Bethesda's decision to scrap the Morrowind engine for something better and there by isolating that release from the rest of the series it's surprising that the general consensus is, that is the procedure they will follow for every release. I think that is where we have made are biggest mistake in judging them. We don't give them enough credit for learning from their mistakes. What if rather than scrapping the Oblivion engine they instead continued to build on it. Coupled with the built on and updated third party components the Oblivion Engine has the potential to last through the next few releases. If you calculate the time between the release of 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2, then divide that into the time that has passed since the last release I'd say it is very possible that rather than releasing TES V 1.0 sometime in 2009 or 2010, we may just see TES IV 5.0 around Christmas 2008. Though I can not divulge my source I have it on good authority that an announcement will be made this summer regarding TES V. That is no doubt where the twisted rumor of a release at that time originated from. Although I know no more than that, I have every faith in Bethesda to deliver and like MasterAub said all we can do is hope and prey until that announcement is made. So ask yourself, "would i rather have a new engine with a few new features and some of the features of the current engine absent, or would I rather have an already established and therefor much more stable engine that will allow me as a modder to transfer 99% of the physical assets created for an earlier version to the latest?". That for me is really no question, I would much rather spend my money on Oblivion 5.0 than say for instance Somerset 1.0.

I really don't know what bug is up the bums of Bethesda staff.

If they were at all rational, they would say:

'Ok, wait. If this modification combines use with Morrowind, will people go to the stores to buy Morrowind, thus making us more money?'

That's the problem. They're idiots.

very well if the TES V brings the whole of Tamriel (or partly morrowind) to the table I'll back off and say " Beth you did it again! "
If not they will have a very , very , very angry fan!

Dang....So i guess my hopes of having the morrowind quests put in is done, eh?

Thanks Worm for these thoughts

Let's try to gather some "almost facts"

Oblivion is one of the best looking Game on the market and is already 2 years old.

Oblivion engine can be improved. Even moders have improved it. From a cosmetic point of view the Qarl Texture Pack is a good example. From a gameplay point of view the deadly reflex series are also quite impressive.

Oblivion/Morrowind remain the references as far as Role Playing Game is concern. Their background story is probably one of the deepest and awe inspiring in history of Video Game .

Gaming Console are more and more expansive...Their life span has increased drastically. Computers capable of running Oblivion on high set up are not inexpansive as well. That means they have some times between two video game generation.


Now take all those "almost facts" and shake them up...what you get is something looking like your theory.

I am not in the know (as you are) but I would not be surprised if Beth would announce something like an improved TES IV (even if they call it TES V) that will built on the Oblivion engine and propose not only Morrowind but maybe the whole of Tamriel.

Galadrielle with Morroblivion has proven that tools can be developped to help in this sense.

And an improved TES IV is at a reach so why wouldn't Beth grab it?

My 2 cents of course

So I have no reason to by the Oblivion GOTY any more.

Sorry for that.

Before we get off no an obscure tangent here I think I need to make a couple things very clear to everyone. First of all everything I have said on this thread is part of my scientific hypotenuse (a theory based on the currently available facts, an educated guess). Secondly, yes it is true that I have my ear to the corporate grapevine and that has afforded me the advance knowledge of an announcement scheduled this summer. Though it has not afforded me the knowledge of the content of that announcement, however improbable it is entirely possible that Bethesda will come out at the press conference and tell us all that they are throwing in the towel on the PC market and concentrating solely on consoles. Nobody can predict the future, we can only guess the most probable outcome based on what we know. I do believe that my theory is a valid one and the events soon to transpire will resemble it very closely, but that is just what I believe. If you have weighed all the facts presented and lean towards my theory, thats great, but please don't believe it just cause I say it and definitely don't make any real life decisions based solely on my opinion. I'm just some know-it-all a***hole from nowhere USA and in the scheme of things just a fly on the wall or a worm in the grass if you will. Bottom line is don't take this stuff to seriously until the announcement is made, then feel free to praise me for being right or chastise me for being wrong, whichever the case may be.

TES V!

Goody goody gumdrops! I'm excited already, and before any press releases either! Oh my, oh my, oh my . . .

(Sorry for that, but on a serious note, Worm's theory does have some merit. While daggerfall might not be integrated, they may have spent some time designing a smaller versio that could be included. Even if it wasn't randomly generated, there would have been no way for them to integrate daggerfall due to its immense size. Lots of things would have to be changed. Same with Morrowind - the scales are just too different. However, there remains the hopeful possibility of a complete cyrodiil, just not exactly as we know it from Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, or Oblivion)

In the end, one has to distinguish between content that is copied from Morrowind and content that is derived from Morrowind. The engine and design scheme of Morrowind leaves a mark of exclusivity and one that makes it easy to distinguish what is directly taken from the game. Morrowind and Oblivion while of the same franchise and series, are nonetheless much different from each other. Morrowind has a much more sci-fi aura to it where as Oblivion (rather successfully I might add) attempts to add realism from the actual Mid-evil time period. Just because something looks like a Sixth House building does not mean that it was taken directly from a Sixth House building model, if you understand my meaning

Don't worry worm

Your theory if interesting is not life threatening

Plus I'll be the first to chastise you if you're wrong. Don't worry for this either...

LOL, I appreciate that, honesty and the occasional tongue lashing(when i deserve it) is all I expect from anyone.

People should note that some interesting revelations have been made on the Bethesda forums. Botttom quote is the reply that Gstaff made to the top comment posted by lyobovnik

Yes, thats a real important turn in this discussion. Anyone who is interested in this topic should read the last posts in this thread on the BGS-Forums and maybe we can talk again then about if Morroblivion and the related mods needs really to get banned completely from TesNexus or not.

Wow, could Gstaff be any more vague?

Completely agree, if they tried to make money, roast them, if not let sleeping dogs lye.

Worm82075, How is Bethesda “bound by threat of lawsuit to take action”?
What law forces them to protect their own work?
If they chose to not protect their own work what would happen?
Individuals who worked on the game would still be able to sue and go after whomever they thought violated them. These same Individuals could have gotten royalties from the sale of more Morrowind games, but not now.

"There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own."

The sad truth now at least is that Bethesda has shown their hand, they openly know about Morroblivion and can’t try to claim ignorance.
I’ve never argued the legality of this, I’ve maintained the poor business practice of stopping something that requires people to go out & buy your product.

i aggree hoots7 Beth CHOSE to attack this utility. in fact I searched a few days ago for Morroblivion not to dl but to satisfy my curiosity & found a couple of torrents for it, each over 200 meg. (I don't know if they were named to be mislead) but it does raise the possibility that people have bundled mw with it. so there wouldn't be a need to buy tes 3 now (assuming those files are really MO).

Give man certain powers and he'll start using them, no matter if there's any reason, even if he destroys his life by doing so.

Have you bought some bread lately?

Have you ever heard about an EULA telling you which knife it's licensed to cut it? Or which butter you'd had to put on it?

We live in times in which our rights of ownership are massevily threatened by idiots.

When you buy a car, it's your (and only your) decision, wether you keep it as it is or maybe cut in in pieces just to build some artwork or maybe furniture of it's parts.

When you buy some bread, it's your decision, where you eat it, which knife you use to cut it, and what will be put on it.

Buy some software, and you'll find a bunch of mental ogers and goblins in your home, trying to occupate dictatorship on nearly everything in reach.

When will we be called criminals for opening the engine hoods of our own car?

Licenses can and should be used by a rights owner to clearify under which circumstances his work will be given to others. Nothing else.

I believe we shouldn't allow discussion of restrictions which are a major threat against private ownership.

I bought it, i payed for it, i use it. As long as i don't spread copies, it's none of their busines. Laws declaring anything against that aren't legitimate POINT!

Sorry for my english.

If you buy the software, once it's opened it can't be returned. If you disagree with their M$ style EULA, it won't install. So who's zoomin' who? If I can't return it and it won't install unless I sign their "contract" I call it "signed under duress" therefore non-binding.

Now I'm really pissed-off. Morroblivion was the last rare glimmer of hope for this god-awful BORING Oblivion. If the quests and wit of Morrowind dialogue could have been converted to LOOK like Oblivion, I think Bethesda would have had another 7 year wonder on their hands, with a captive audience. But with this move, I doubt Oblivion will attract any more attention from the ever increasing yawning gamers than their "Fallout Boy" debacle will.

pablopicasso

It seems as if many people are under the mistaken assumption that everything Bethesda produces and sells also falls under Bethesda's ownership, but it is far from it.

So, for the 496th time... (I'm beginning to feel like a broken record!)

Not all of Morrowind is their work. Bethesda is using third party, licensed content in Morrowind that they do *NOT* own.




If Bethesda had complete ownership of everything in MW there wouldn't be any need for them to do anything to stop Morroblivion but, unfortunately for us, they do not.

Please understand that, as a professional business, they are restricted by license agreements, business contracts and copyright laws as to what they can allow users to do with the content they include in their products. They do not have the luxury of taking legal gambles with their licensors just so that we can play with our free little toys. Even if it means stopping Morroblivion, and thereby perhaps even lowering their Morrowind sales. And, yeah, I'm sure they'd love the chance to sell even more MW copies but, at the risk of being sued by the original suppliers/owners of some of MW's assets, they simply cannot allow or condone Morroblivion.

Whether we like it or not those are the rules businesses have to play under these days. Bethesda can't do it differently than any others.

As far as I can tell, from what little has been divulged (remember, businesses have to be very careful about what information they release and how they word themselves), they're not doing this with the express intention of pissing us off and alienating us. They're obviously doing this to protect their own behinds so that they can continue to produce new products for us to purchase and can continue their work, and their good relations, with whatever business partners they have.


I have to say that I'm amazed (and a little saddened) at the vitriol and energy people invest in this discussion. You people don't like Bethesda's business practices, the licensing arrangements they have with their independent business partners and how they enforce them? Then don't buy any more of their products. It's as simple as that.

It's called consumer power.

But complaining about it in a forum thread someplace on the web is pretty pointless and will accomplish absolutely nothing, other than wasting energy, bandwidth and ultimately making the Bethesda devs shy away even more from communicating with their once-so-friendly community. Rather than adopting the (these days, oh, so popular) stickin' it to "man" attitude, writing lengthy and angry posts about how "corporate" Bethesda sucks, I'd love to see people spending some energy on positive things instead. Like modding. And a little less drama.

Cheers, UQF

I'm not sure why you think that repeatedly returning to and entering a discussion for the purpose of stating that the discussion is pointless is going to accomplish anything.

If you actually read my post thoroughly you can see that I didn't say discussion is pointless. I said complaining is pointless. Discussing and complaining are two different things. One of them can be done constructively while the other will, in this case as in so many others, serve no practical purpose.

Cheers, UQF

Edit: Nevermind.

Galahaut, to clarify, please understand that I'm by no means at all saying that it isn't possible to have a negative opinion of Bethesda.

They've done many things wrong in my opinion. That would explain why I've pretty much changed every aspect of gameplay in Oblivion with my own personal mods.

But sometimes I think it's pretty important for us to see things from their perspective too, without all this "to hell with Bethesda" stuff getting tossed about (as it has on occasion in this thread.) They're a business needing to follow certain guidelines and agreements and we need to at least respect and deal with that in a polite and constructive manner.

And, frankly, given how prevailingly negative (and on occasion even abusive) the general attitude has been in the community for the last few years I don't blame the Bethesda devs for no longer partaking in this community as much as they have before.

But I'm still hoping, just as much as everyone else, that there will be some sort of resolution to this and that Galadrielle can modify Morroblivion so as to make it, for Bethesda and its needs, a more legally acceptable piece of software. I hope I'm not setting my hopes too high though.

Cheers, UQF

It's a bit of a catch-22, since a large part of the negativity comes from the fact that there is close to no communication.

hehe i never wanted to play morroblivion untill i read that it got closed hehe. guess when you cant have something it makes you actually want it

but then again.... you cant miss something you never had

BTW i hate mods getting canceled and abandoned too but it happens all the time theres nothing anyone can do about it.