Full Version: Morroblivion and mods that use content from other games
can i find a site that i can download this off, besides planet elder scrolls?
QUOTE(Klaiven @ Feb 6 2008, 02:50 AM) 
With the major caveat that I am not a copyright lawyer, I nonetheless find it very hard to believe that controlling property rights to such a degree that one's own company's productions cannot be "cross-seeded", as it were, is actually needful for protecting them from outside utilization.
Would any sane judge really not be able to interpret a game company's allowance of letting it's *own* products be converged as not setting precedence for outside utilization of materials? This is a big difference from having an outside company appropriate materials, as the MOb converter never leaves the confines of Bethesda products. By the way the EULA goes, MOb technically produces materials which become Bethesda products, even if the converter itself might not be.
If the Bethesda legal structure is that shaky, maybe we should be wishing them to get BETTER lawyers in the future.
Would any sane judge really not be able to interpret a game company's allowance of letting it's *own* products be converged as not setting precedence for outside utilization of materials? This is a big difference from having an outside company appropriate materials, as the MOb converter never leaves the confines of Bethesda products. By the way the EULA goes, MOb technically produces materials which become Bethesda products, even if the converter itself might not be.
If the Bethesda legal structure is that shaky, maybe we should be wishing them to get BETTER lawyers in the future.
As I said, probably just a change in policy to protect them from people violating Bethesda's agreements with other companies. For instance, if they bought licenses to use different textures/voices/models/whatever in Morrowind, using those in Oblivion might be a violation of that contract, thus - it's Bethesda's neck on the line. Just speculating, of course, but if it's something like that I can totally understand why they asked Darkone to take down the mod.
QUOTE(cme2529 @ Feb 5 2008, 11:42 PM)
What is so wrong with taking all that we loved from TES3 and adding it to TES4? You guys are fascists or nazis, whichever you find more offensive.
Oh yeah, thank you for invoking Godwin's Law on page 10 of this debate. As far as I'm aware, Bethesda are not exactly killing millions of Jews, homosexuals and Slavs. And also, I'm not sure they're making a despotic totalitarian state based along the lines of the will of the people expressed in their "glorious" leader.
The only possible reason you could have for saying this is if Bethesda are actually making a game called "TES5: Birkenau". Seriously, you are a churl and a scoundrel, sir.
QUOTE(skindead1 @ Feb 6 2008, 09:20 AM)
can i find a site that i can download this off, besides planet elder scrolls?
No longer, it's been taken down from both the nexus and PES. The EULA violation is a myth that continues to be propagated, as I see.
Anyway, the author of the program will just keep a low-profile from now on. The only way Morroblivion could be discussed again was if all the meshes and textures from Morrowind GotY -- Morrowind.bsa, Tribunal.bsa, Bloodmoon.bsa -- were recreated from scratch by modelers for Oblivion, and packaged as a modder's resource.
Then, using this resource, a version of Morroblivion modified to not touch Bethesda's stuff, only modder-created models and textures, could be released; and it would be allowed as Gstaff explicitely said himself.
QUOTE(FaceinThesand @ Feb 6 2008, 01:46 PM)
As I said, probably just a change in policy to protect them from people violating Bethesda's agreements with other companies. For instance, if they bought licenses to use different textures/voices/models/whatever in Morrowind, using those in Oblivion might be a violation of that contract, thus - it's Bethesda's neck on the line. Just speculating, of course, but if it's something like that I can totally understand why they asked Darkone to take down the mod.
That news is up on TESNexus frontpage now, so it's confirmed. A list of what content is acceptable and what is unacceptable to use would have been nice, but that would probably have been hoping too much. It would still be nice if we could have it in a non-Morrowind core format, as there's many user mods that merit conversion.
I rescind my comment. I guess I see the point of having to safeguard themselves. I definitely don't like it and I still feel betrayed by my favorite gaming company though. This project hurt no one and forced every user to have their own copy of Morrowind.
And of course Bethesda wouldn't do a "Morrowind: Source" type of project, in which they recreate Morrowind using the Oblivion (or updated F3) engine.
So that leaves us loyalists wanting something more out of Bethesda games that keeps with the magic of Tamriel, Nirn and TES in general.
Less replay-ability in Oblivion... empty handed and longing.
At least they didn't call modders hackers again.
And of course Bethesda wouldn't do a "Morrowind: Source" type of project, in which they recreate Morrowind using the Oblivion (or updated F3) engine.
So that leaves us loyalists wanting something more out of Bethesda games that keeps with the magic of Tamriel, Nirn and TES in general.
Less replay-ability in Oblivion... empty handed and longing.
At least they didn't call modders hackers again.
While I understand that some modders may feel upset about this, Bethesda are quite within their rights to do this. If the community refuses to comply (and I'm sure it will comply) - but if it were to refuse to comply, then you can rest assured that the next Elder Scrolls game will be released without a construction set.
From my personal and opinable point of view I think Beth should at least explain in detail why they decided to do so.
And no: four summary lines from the last of their employees is not an explanation imo.
Until then everyone will be free to debate and argument about this as an abuse, or as an unnecessary "muscle-show", or peraphs as some mafious behaviour or worse...
I give my moral support to Morroblivion and its creator Galadrielle, because she is only a fan who made a non-profit mod and because I really appreciate her work and I hope it can be improved.
I don't know nothing about US' Law, copyrights policy and stuff, and I don't care since here where I live this supposed EULA violation is not applicabile to a private person who is not even doing it for money... and I think in France is more or less the same.
Sorry for my English,
Ciao a tutti!
And no: four summary lines from the last of their employees is not an explanation imo.
Until then everyone will be free to debate and argument about this as an abuse, or as an unnecessary "muscle-show", or peraphs as some mafious behaviour or worse...
I give my moral support to Morroblivion and its creator Galadrielle, because she is only a fan who made a non-profit mod and because I really appreciate her work and I hope it can be improved.
I don't know nothing about US' Law, copyrights policy and stuff, and I don't care since here where I live this supposed EULA violation is not applicabile to a private person who is not even doing it for money... and I think in France is more or less the same.
Sorry for my English,
Ciao a tutti!
Bethesda is welcome to release TESV without a construction set and lose a substantial portion of their fanbase and sales.
Firstly my heart goes out to Galadrielle. It’s hard to imagine the work which went into this utility, which was produced in good faith. It must be very frustrating to find your efforts pulled from under you.
It’s clear there is a great deal of anger about this decision. I don’t want to appear a champion for Bethesda but having spoken to my son who is an IP lawyer, albeit specialising in the music industry in England, I think I can understand the reasons behind the decision, probably.
If I can begin by clarifying the status of all Mods produced for Oblivion, Morrowind or indeed an software covered by standard EULA’s.
Not one of us own a game called Oblivion. We own a LICENCE to use the game. The game belongs to the publishers and their subsidiary licence holders, not to you its customers. This is common to most IP. It the same reason why sharing MP3’s of albums is theft.
Any and all mods or as they put it Customized Game Materials, and notice the copyright logo attached to that phrase, is also owned by them. This means for example, if Bethesda decide to release an expansion which has an Archaeology Guild and a weird serious of Spires, the producers of the Lost Spires Mod have no legal standing to sue for breach of copyright. They can cherry pick any and all ideas and call them there own.
Bethesda for instance are within their rights to publish a Best of the Web selection of mods as a promotional tool. My son does feel that they would be on shakier ground if they tried to sell such a release as a commercial venture as other legal precedents may outweigh the catch all end user agreement.
The EULA is also clear about the nature of the content of Customized Game Material. It seeks to limit their liability should you use their software to produce libellous or defamatory material. They are not exempt from all liability however. If you recall the game was reclassified because although it had no nude content, mods were available which did. That fact may have cost them sales.
However it is also important to understand that Bethesda themselves are customers who have licences for products they do not own. For example, Bethesda do not own the voice files of Patrick Stewart. The own the right to use them according to the contract with Patrick Stewart. Depending on that contract, they could not for instance release a new ‘expansion pack’ which re-edits those voice files without prior permission from Patrick Stewart.
This is important. The update mentions that Dogsbody has provided further clarification on the matter:
"There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own."
This is as close as we will probably get to an answer. Games like Morrowind and Oblivion are in fact an assembly of third part components. Without knowing in detail which components where built solely in-house and which were shipped out to third parties it’s hard to say exactly which part of the ‘whole’ is the sticking point for Morroblivion.
For instance, let’s say the design of the land masses and world maps were produced by a third party. Perhaps a small company specializing in produce large scale 3-d world. There will be a contract between the two companies, limiting its use.
It will work both ways. The third party will limit the way Bethesda can use the product, to preventing them from create game after game using the same canvas, AND Bethesda will limit the third part provider from using or selling that map elsewhere. It is therefore in Bethesda’s commercial interest to honor those agreements fully.
It is likely given the general leniency and indeed encouragement displayed by Bethesda for all manner of utilities and mods which might be interpreted as breaching the UELA that the problem has come from one of those third party suppliers who feel there IP rights have been breached.
Consider this. Galadrielle is clearly a very talented individual. But I suspect, that somewhere in Bethesda there is an equally talented individual who given access to the source code could have produced a similar utility. In fact without too much development, they could probably have ported the whole Morrowind experience over to Oblivion’s game engine. This is not unheard of. Valve have done so.
They could have released a MORROWIND: SPECIAL EDITION pack containing all the content, all the quest, all the voices, upgraded to Oblivion Graphics standards. And we would have rushed to the stores and bought it. Given the fact that the majority of a games costs come from R&D it would have proved a very nice little earner.
So why is this not happening. Because Bethesda are beholding to a whole bunch of third party suppliers who would demand their slice.
It would be nice if someone in the Bethesda legal department could clarify the reasons, but of course they are in themselves limited. They cannot for instance say this is due to JOE BLOGS LTD who don’t want there meshes used, because it could create issues for JOE BLOGS and their customer relations.
But some clarification would be nice because if nothing else it would prevent another Galadrielle wasting 100’s of hours producing a utility that we can not legally use.
It is important to remember of course that while we are a vocal and knowledgeable group we are relatively small in comparison with the huge customer base for the game. Most play this game on consoles.
Finally I do hope no-one has done anything silly over at the Bethesda forum. It appears to be off-line or perhaps they are in hiding.
What a great shame it has come to this.
It’s clear there is a great deal of anger about this decision. I don’t want to appear a champion for Bethesda but having spoken to my son who is an IP lawyer, albeit specialising in the music industry in England, I think I can understand the reasons behind the decision, probably.
If I can begin by clarifying the status of all Mods produced for Oblivion, Morrowind or indeed an software covered by standard EULA’s.
Not one of us own a game called Oblivion. We own a LICENCE to use the game. The game belongs to the publishers and their subsidiary licence holders, not to you its customers. This is common to most IP. It the same reason why sharing MP3’s of albums is theft.
Any and all mods or as they put it Customized Game Materials, and notice the copyright logo attached to that phrase, is also owned by them. This means for example, if Bethesda decide to release an expansion which has an Archaeology Guild and a weird serious of Spires, the producers of the Lost Spires Mod have no legal standing to sue for breach of copyright. They can cherry pick any and all ideas and call them there own.
Bethesda for instance are within their rights to publish a Best of the Web selection of mods as a promotional tool. My son does feel that they would be on shakier ground if they tried to sell such a release as a commercial venture as other legal precedents may outweigh the catch all end user agreement.
The EULA is also clear about the nature of the content of Customized Game Material. It seeks to limit their liability should you use their software to produce libellous or defamatory material. They are not exempt from all liability however. If you recall the game was reclassified because although it had no nude content, mods were available which did. That fact may have cost them sales.
However it is also important to understand that Bethesda themselves are customers who have licences for products they do not own. For example, Bethesda do not own the voice files of Patrick Stewart. The own the right to use them according to the contract with Patrick Stewart. Depending on that contract, they could not for instance release a new ‘expansion pack’ which re-edits those voice files without prior permission from Patrick Stewart.
This is important. The update mentions that Dogsbody has provided further clarification on the matter:
"There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own."
This is as close as we will probably get to an answer. Games like Morrowind and Oblivion are in fact an assembly of third part components. Without knowing in detail which components where built solely in-house and which were shipped out to third parties it’s hard to say exactly which part of the ‘whole’ is the sticking point for Morroblivion.
For instance, let’s say the design of the land masses and world maps were produced by a third party. Perhaps a small company specializing in produce large scale 3-d world. There will be a contract between the two companies, limiting its use.
It will work both ways. The third party will limit the way Bethesda can use the product, to preventing them from create game after game using the same canvas, AND Bethesda will limit the third part provider from using or selling that map elsewhere. It is therefore in Bethesda’s commercial interest to honor those agreements fully.
It is likely given the general leniency and indeed encouragement displayed by Bethesda for all manner of utilities and mods which might be interpreted as breaching the UELA that the problem has come from one of those third party suppliers who feel there IP rights have been breached.
Consider this. Galadrielle is clearly a very talented individual. But I suspect, that somewhere in Bethesda there is an equally talented individual who given access to the source code could have produced a similar utility. In fact without too much development, they could probably have ported the whole Morrowind experience over to Oblivion’s game engine. This is not unheard of. Valve have done so.
They could have released a MORROWIND: SPECIAL EDITION pack containing all the content, all the quest, all the voices, upgraded to Oblivion Graphics standards. And we would have rushed to the stores and bought it. Given the fact that the majority of a games costs come from R&D it would have proved a very nice little earner.
So why is this not happening. Because Bethesda are beholding to a whole bunch of third party suppliers who would demand their slice.
It would be nice if someone in the Bethesda legal department could clarify the reasons, but of course they are in themselves limited. They cannot for instance say this is due to JOE BLOGS LTD who don’t want there meshes used, because it could create issues for JOE BLOGS and their customer relations.
But some clarification would be nice because if nothing else it would prevent another Galadrielle wasting 100’s of hours producing a utility that we can not legally use.
It is important to remember of course that while we are a vocal and knowledgeable group we are relatively small in comparison with the huge customer base for the game. Most play this game on consoles.
Finally I do hope no-one has done anything silly over at the Bethesda forum. It appears to be off-line or perhaps they are in hiding.
What a great shame it has come to this.
I hope morroblivion project continues despite Bethesda. If Bethesda isn't changing policies, or "forgets" to include an editor. Let me put it this way. If I had to choose between oblivion and gothic 3 vanilla, I would've opted gothic 3.
Mods such as morroblivion are what make this great game great.
Even if I get oblivion I sure as hell don't plan on making it's money worth to bethesda. After all that's all I can and will do.
Mods such as morroblivion are what make this great game great.
Even if I get oblivion I sure as hell don't plan on making it's money worth to bethesda. After all that's all I can and will do.
I've read through most of the posts and almost nobody is talking about a solution...
Sure, a solution to infringing a license you might think... right? Well, bluntly put, yeah.
This is the Internet for God's sake, where most of the black market is developed, operated and nurtured. Bethesda says that Galadreille's great mod does not respect the EULA agreement? Well, if Bethesda won't budge after fan reaction, then it might budge after it realizes the plugin's development and distribution are unstoppable... and if not, then tough luck, Bethesda.
There's BitTorrent, eDonkey or eMule, IRC, newsgroups.... why leave it out in the open as in a web page where warnings could pop up again? Obviously these wonderful programs are not guilty of our actions... maybe they are deemed guilty, but in reality shouldn't be. The obvious solution to stopping fiery shootouts is to get rid of the guns. Sorry, sidetracked.
Just as an intermission, most may be thinking: "is wind running through your head?" Honestly, yes because if otherwise I wouldn't have posted here.
So, simple solution? Distribute the plugin by other means. TESNEXUS is a website that every Oblivion and Morrowind fan should make an effort to keep alive. If Galadrielle's identity is kept private there's no beef with anybody and we can all keep enjoying wonderful Morroblivion!
However, this all depends on whether Galadrielle still wants to continue the plugin.....
Sure, a solution to infringing a license you might think... right? Well, bluntly put, yeah.
This is the Internet for God's sake, where most of the black market is developed, operated and nurtured. Bethesda says that Galadreille's great mod does not respect the EULA agreement? Well, if Bethesda won't budge after fan reaction, then it might budge after it realizes the plugin's development and distribution are unstoppable... and if not, then tough luck, Bethesda.
There's BitTorrent, eDonkey or eMule, IRC, newsgroups.... why leave it out in the open as in a web page where warnings could pop up again? Obviously these wonderful programs are not guilty of our actions... maybe they are deemed guilty, but in reality shouldn't be. The obvious solution to stopping fiery shootouts is to get rid of the guns. Sorry, sidetracked.
Just as an intermission, most may be thinking: "is wind running through your head?" Honestly, yes because if otherwise I wouldn't have posted here.
So, simple solution? Distribute the plugin by other means. TESNEXUS is a website that every Oblivion and Morrowind fan should make an effort to keep alive. If Galadrielle's identity is kept private there's no beef with anybody and we can all keep enjoying wonderful Morroblivion!
However, this all depends on whether Galadrielle still wants to continue the plugin.....
Yes yes, let's stop arguing about whether or not this was legally correct and find other ways for us to get Morroblivion.
I put off downloading it until today...and i'm such an idiot...anyway is there anyone willing to torrent it? like on piratebay or something? I was infuriated when i learnt i couldn't download it...
(apologies if this post goes against the rules....feel free to delete it if it does...but then you'll be a bethesda fascist like the rest of 'em...haha joking)
I put off downloading it until today...and i'm such an idiot...anyway is there anyone willing to torrent it? like on piratebay or something? I was infuriated when i learnt i couldn't download it...
(apologies if this post goes against the rules....feel free to delete it if it does...but then you'll be a bethesda fascist like the rest of 'em...haha joking)
A lot of the comments here are of people discussing the legal details to this issue. I think we shouldn't forget the bottom line(s);
The Elderscrolls series are great games because they promote freedom and creativity, not only in game but also to a vast community of people working hours and hours to create great modifications for the world to enjoy; using the construction set as their brushes and paint, the game itself as the canvas. It's such a wonderful, open concept that it is sad, very sad, to suddenly be met with legal constraints which, by itself, would be justified, if third parties would aim to make money with those game files, but surely not if people just try to expand on the game experience itself; have the world enjoy their efforts and thus adding to the richness of Oblivion and the Elderscrolls concept as a whole.
@ Zhelkus
I share your feeling and motivations Zhelkus. The only problem is that Morroblivion needs people to work on it and produce mods which improve / add to / sparkle up the old Morrowind content. If Beth is firm on their stance, they will pursue action against all mods using the old files. And my guess is portals like Tesnexus don't want to run the risk of facing legal action every time a mod like that pops up. In that respect, they have shoved the role of 'policing' Beth's stance on this into Tesnexus' and other portals' shoes. Which is, just a wild guess here, something DarkOne isn't all that happy about. And where would we be without portals like Tesnexus? A community like ours? Of course it could be organized like you describe; solitary and teams of modders which work on Morroblivion projects and upload it somewhere safe. But a better cause of action might be to let our voices be heard, positively but LOUD! And to hope for a review of this case from Bethesda's side. Perhaps there could be some kind of addition to the legal side or some slightly altered constraints which would make adding older Elderscroll files usable, on a non-profit base. I sincerely hope so. It would be so much more preferable to have Bethesda on the community's side. Just because and also with the development of future games and CS's in mind.
The Elderscrolls series are great games because they promote freedom and creativity, not only in game but also to a vast community of people working hours and hours to create great modifications for the world to enjoy; using the construction set as their brushes and paint, the game itself as the canvas. It's such a wonderful, open concept that it is sad, very sad, to suddenly be met with legal constraints which, by itself, would be justified, if third parties would aim to make money with those game files, but surely not if people just try to expand on the game experience itself; have the world enjoy their efforts and thus adding to the richness of Oblivion and the Elderscrolls concept as a whole.
@ Zhelkus
I share your feeling and motivations Zhelkus. The only problem is that Morroblivion needs people to work on it and produce mods which improve / add to / sparkle up the old Morrowind content. If Beth is firm on their stance, they will pursue action against all mods using the old files. And my guess is portals like Tesnexus don't want to run the risk of facing legal action every time a mod like that pops up. In that respect, they have shoved the role of 'policing' Beth's stance on this into Tesnexus' and other portals' shoes. Which is, just a wild guess here, something DarkOne isn't all that happy about. And where would we be without portals like Tesnexus? A community like ours? Of course it could be organized like you describe; solitary and teams of modders which work on Morroblivion projects and upload it somewhere safe. But a better cause of action might be to let our voices be heard, positively but LOUD! And to hope for a review of this case from Bethesda's side. Perhaps there could be some kind of addition to the legal side or some slightly altered constraints which would make adding older Elderscroll files usable, on a non-profit base. I sincerely hope so. It would be so much more preferable to have Bethesda on the community's side. Just because and also with the development of future games and CS's in mind.
Wow, Bethesda are morons. As an Oblivion only owner, I was going to purchase Morrowind to use with Morroblivion. Oh well, I guess they just lost a game sale and gained a disgruntled Morroblivion fan.
Also, anyone notice that the entire Bethesda website group is down: CS wiki, forum, bethsoft, etc?
Once it is back up, I'd recommend that all Morroblivion fans goto their "Contact Us" section and send them a firmly stated email that they are idiots for canceling a mod that promotes users to purchase an additional one of their games.
Once it is back up, I'd recommend that all Morroblivion fans goto their "Contact Us" section and send them a firmly stated email that they are idiots for canceling a mod that promotes users to purchase an additional one of their games.
Morroblivion is just a dream comes true.
What Beth thinks I don't really care about, I was boring after Oblivion two days after I had it.
If I play this game it is exclusively because of the hard work of GREAT modders !
And Morroblivion is really what I was looking for -) Pleasure !
I thank Galadrielle and support him
What Beth thinks I don't really care about, I was boring after Oblivion two days after I had it.
If I play this game it is exclusively because of the hard work of GREAT modders !
And Morroblivion is really what I was looking for -) Pleasure !
I thank Galadrielle and support him
QUOTE(hoihoi8 @ Feb 6 2008, 07:46 PM)
I'd recommend that all Morroblivion fans goto their "Contact Us" section and send them a firmly stated email that they are idiots
I don't think this would achieve anything worthwhile, so I advise not to do it.
I just can't believe it...bastards...
TR Gez: I don't think this would achieve anything worthwhile, so I advise not to do it.
If history tells us anything, a large number of people voicing their opinion against a decision has failed 100% of the time. A large backlash would never make them consider looking the other way next time. TR Gez is right, provide no resistance, follow orders, and fall in line.
/end sarcasm
If history tells us anything, a large number of people voicing their opinion against a decision has failed 100% of the time. A large backlash would never make them consider looking the other way next time. TR Gez is right, provide no resistance, follow orders, and fall in line.
/end sarcasm
I agree with hoihoi8 here,
We should voice our disapproval, or disappointment. The more the better. Just keep it decent. Maybe something like;
Dear Bethesda,
The Elderscrolls series are great games because they promote freedom and creativity, both in gameplay and in the modification of the game through the construction set. It's such a wonderful, open concept that I'm very disappointed to suddenly be met with legal constraints considering not being allowed to use files from previous Bethesda games to implement them in Oblivion, or supply the means to do so, like in the Morroblivion project.
Of course, I would understand such constraints if third parties would abuse such a tool to make money with those files or with any of your legal property. But this is clearly a case of people honestly trying to expand on the game experience itself; to have the world enjoy their efforts and thus adding to the richness of Oblivion and the Elderscrolls concept as a whole.
I ask you kindly to reconsider the cross-game file usage constraints, if you are able to find the legal means to do so.
Thank you,
<name>
We should voice our disapproval, or disappointment. The more the better. Just keep it decent. Maybe something like;
Dear Bethesda,
The Elderscrolls series are great games because they promote freedom and creativity, both in gameplay and in the modification of the game through the construction set. It's such a wonderful, open concept that I'm very disappointed to suddenly be met with legal constraints considering not being allowed to use files from previous Bethesda games to implement them in Oblivion, or supply the means to do so, like in the Morroblivion project.
Of course, I would understand such constraints if third parties would abuse such a tool to make money with those files or with any of your legal property. But this is clearly a case of people honestly trying to expand on the game experience itself; to have the world enjoy their efforts and thus adding to the richness of Oblivion and the Elderscrolls concept as a whole.
I ask you kindly to reconsider the cross-game file usage constraints, if you are able to find the legal means to do so.
Thank you,
<name>
Hmm, I suppose that even though we can find sneaky sneaky downloads of morroblivion, if it isn't being worked on anymore, it'll still have its bugs and whatnot...like those collapsed world ones....
First QARL, now this....
Saddly... indeed.
Saddly... indeed.
Here's my interview with Valen Dreth. I saw the look on his face, because I won't let him in Morroblivion hehehehe! >:)
Just a lil' fun vid I made.
NOTE : If you see a camera when the video shows up, it's processed. Just needs to take some time to upload the images.
Just a lil' fun vid I made.
NOTE : If you see a camera when the video shows up, it's processed. Just needs to take some time to upload the images.
Definitely good to know exactly why they did it.
Now THIS is what I like to see; the way this situation was handled--so professionally, so respectful of Bethesda. I can tell from the way this matter was handled that there are good people behind this site. =) It makes me proud to be a member.
I've always viewed the construction sets from Bethesda as more of a "developers resource" than a players utility. The modding community is a great place for a developer to "snatch" ideas and concepts for their next game. I totally respect Bethesda for their actions, but also feel the pain of my fellow gamers and modders. Morrowind was a truley great game that transformed my view of Rpg's. Oblivion was a decent followup (but lacked some of the depth of MW). Lets pray that Bethesda continues on with the Elder Scrolls series in an intelligent and creative manner and doesn't give in totally to the "dumbed down" gamer majority and/or the quick-fix financial solutions that so many entertainment providers have succumbed to! Thanks to all the great modders here on TESNexus and Darkone for hosting the site and communicating his concerns and actions to us all!
If Bethesda wants to make a big deal about this, why don't they just get their asses in gear and GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT. With all due respect to Galadrielle for the awsome concept, if this is an issue over money then Bethesda needs to create a "Morrowind Add-on" for Oblivion. It's OBVIOUS from the amount of comments this has recieved that players CARE ABOUT THIS IDEA and would gladly go pick up a copy at the store. It sucks that the corporate machine works the way it does, but I honestly don't care how the mod comes to be, I JUST WANNA PLAY IT DAMNIT!
QUOTE(Xtudo @ Feb 6 2008, 10:12 PM)
First QARL, now this....
Saddly... indeed.
What happened to Qarl? What did I miss?
Saddly... indeed.
I have always had very warm and positive feelings towards Bethesda Softworks, due wholely to Morrowind and then Oblvion, and to the creative and talented people who put them together. That reputation alone was enough to get me to go out and purchase other Bethesda titles such as their Star Trek games, and enough to get me to consider purchasing their upcoming Fallout 3 title.
But now, all of a sudden, with their decision to ban the Morroblivion mod, I am left with very strong feelings of disappointment, feelings of betryal. And even, gasp, forgive me for even mentioning this because I never ever imagined this possible, but yes, feelings of anger towards Bethesda Softworks.
I do realize that this is only a game and that there are far more important things in this life, and I do understand the differentiation between the two, but If you will allow me to intimate to you dear reader, the feeling I am experiencing here is akin to your girlfriend cheating on you with your best friend. You never thought it possible, but yet, here it is, it has happened, and there isn't a thing you can do about it. The let down you feel is enormous, it is beyond words.
Now when seeing the name Bethesda Softworks, or seeing the Bethesda Softworks logo, the feeling I feel is of disappointment, is of betrayal, of deprivation of happiness, and now it is drowning out all of those formerly positive feelings of warmth that were there before. They have all seemingly vanished into thin air, leaving me let down and forsaken. This is what is left, what I now feel.
That being said, I would have stopped playing these games a long time ago had it not been for the brilliant work of modders such as Galadrielle who kept me interested in playing onwards thanks to their addition of wonderful and interesting new content such as this. The Morroblvion mod was the best thing to happen to Oblivion and Morrowind in years and it gave me great joy. But now it is gone, a victim
of the shortsightedness of prohibition.
And so yes, irony of all ironies, a sense of doom truly does sweep the land as there is no joy in either Springfield or in Mudville as I sit here to write these words to share with you dear reader.
Now we must must part, but you shall find your own path on the road to destiny. If you will excuse me, I must now take a moment to pause and reflect, and to contemplate the loss of an ex and long time best friend.
But now, all of a sudden, with their decision to ban the Morroblivion mod, I am left with very strong feelings of disappointment, feelings of betryal. And even, gasp, forgive me for even mentioning this because I never ever imagined this possible, but yes, feelings of anger towards Bethesda Softworks.
I do realize that this is only a game and that there are far more important things in this life, and I do understand the differentiation between the two, but If you will allow me to intimate to you dear reader, the feeling I am experiencing here is akin to your girlfriend cheating on you with your best friend. You never thought it possible, but yet, here it is, it has happened, and there isn't a thing you can do about it. The let down you feel is enormous, it is beyond words.
Now when seeing the name Bethesda Softworks, or seeing the Bethesda Softworks logo, the feeling I feel is of disappointment, is of betrayal, of deprivation of happiness, and now it is drowning out all of those formerly positive feelings of warmth that were there before. They have all seemingly vanished into thin air, leaving me let down and forsaken. This is what is left, what I now feel.
That being said, I would have stopped playing these games a long time ago had it not been for the brilliant work of modders such as Galadrielle who kept me interested in playing onwards thanks to their addition of wonderful and interesting new content such as this. The Morroblvion mod was the best thing to happen to Oblivion and Morrowind in years and it gave me great joy. But now it is gone, a victim
of the shortsightedness of prohibition.
And so yes, irony of all ironies, a sense of doom truly does sweep the land as there is no joy in either Springfield or in Mudville as I sit here to write these words to share with you dear reader.
Now we must must part, but you shall find your own path on the road to destiny. If you will excuse me, I must now take a moment to pause and reflect, and to contemplate the loss of an ex and long time best friend.
Anyone got an alternate download yet? A few on GameFAQs says it\'s still around if one looks for it? I suppose the only option left to get it is emailing and torrenting.
If Beth retracted their decision it would look bad on them as a corporate entity, being indecisive and weak-willed. Therefore, let\'s stop with the 10 pages of \'oh n0es bethesda u gay >=[\' and start putting up some torrents already.
Freedom of data!
If Beth retracted their decision it would look bad on them as a corporate entity, being indecisive and weak-willed. Therefore, let\'s stop with the 10 pages of \'oh n0es bethesda u gay >=[\' and start putting up some torrents already.
Freedom of data!
This only applies to mods that use the actual assets from other games, ie;Meshes and Textures. Mods that recreate the assets from other games, such as The Silgrad Tower project, are known to and accepted by Bethesda Softworks. This action taken by Bethesda should come as no surprise to anyone in this community. It has been known to all for three years that we do not have permission to use the assets from either game in the other. The author of Morroblivion even says as much in the readme, so anyone that has been using that mod can't say they didn't know. Everyone is acting all hurt and betrayed by BethSoft, when the fact is we are the ones that betrayed them by violating the End-User Lisencse we all agreed to by playing their game. Perhaps you should all think about that before you piss and moan about being told to stop breaking the law. It's time we recognized that we aren't doing them any favors and that they are very gracious in handling these matters. They are well within their right and power to shut down the whole show. So why don't you show a little tact and a lot of appreciation,
and support the company that makes what we all love so much.
Also to all you out there openly talking about continuing to download and use this file, you are the ones holding the entire modding revolution from reaching the next level of evolution. Show some common sense and stop openly talking about stabbing the one that just slapped you on the wrist.
EDIT: After reading every single post here I'm am now very irritated with the general attitude towards Bethesda for making this decision. You all want an explanation and I will give it to you.
How long would you work for a company that allowed your creative works to be exploited by anyone that had the whim to do so? Not very long I'm sure. The game designers and programmers are Bethesda's first concern. If they did not keep them happy they would not stick around to make the games that we love and there would be no game and hence no modding community. If you want to see Morrowind in Oblivion then Head over to Silgrad Tower(link in my sig) and pitch in on the one project that is making this a reality the legal way and with Bethesda's blessing. All your selfish psycho babble only serves to hinder our progression in this revolution we call TES modding. So either get off your duff and do something or just shut your trap. (sorry but someone had to say it)
and support the company that makes what we all love so much.
Also to all you out there openly talking about continuing to download and use this file, you are the ones holding the entire modding revolution from reaching the next level of evolution. Show some common sense and stop openly talking about stabbing the one that just slapped you on the wrist.
EDIT: After reading every single post here I'm am now very irritated with the general attitude towards Bethesda for making this decision. You all want an explanation and I will give it to you.
How long would you work for a company that allowed your creative works to be exploited by anyone that had the whim to do so? Not very long I'm sure. The game designers and programmers are Bethesda's first concern. If they did not keep them happy they would not stick around to make the games that we love and there would be no game and hence no modding community. If you want to see Morrowind in Oblivion then Head over to Silgrad Tower(link in my sig) and pitch in on the one project that is making this a reality the legal way and with Bethesda's blessing. All your selfish psycho babble only serves to hinder our progression in this revolution we call TES modding. So either get off your duff and do something or just shut your trap. (sorry but someone had to say it)
I guess everyone is entitled on their opinion, worm82075. I stand by mine. Restricting files being used between separate bethesda games should be perfectly fine for the non-commercial modding community. We can use the MW files for MW mods, the Oblivion files for Oblivion mods, but we can't exchange them. These restrictions I view as legal bickering and they derive from the open game concept which the Elderscrolls game represent for me.
Silgrad Tower is a great project, Morroblivion as well. They both serve in their different ways to vastly expand our gameworld and expand on the richness of the Oblivion game.
I don't care if you think we shouldn't question their decision in this matter. Of course, they might stand in their legal right but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to agree or like it. I agree with you that any criticism should be decent and constructive. Acting like spoiled kids doesn't do us any good.
Silgrad Tower is a great project, Morroblivion as well. They both serve in their different ways to vastly expand our gameworld and expand on the richness of the Oblivion game.
I don't care if you think we shouldn't question their decision in this matter. Of course, they might stand in their legal right but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to agree or like it. I agree with you that any criticism should be decent and constructive. Acting like spoiled kids doesn't do us any good.
Ah yes, the classic and incorrect belief that all laws are correct, should be enforced at all times, and should be blindly followed and accepted.
Ehm worm82075 dude, try to "recreate" a famous song from a famous singer and see what happens...
Your post sounds a little bit too emotive to me.
I'm not a supporter of Silgrad Tower, they are doing an hard and respectable work, but I think it will remain incomplete (As its predecessor) and on a low overall quality level (imo).
They whined on their forums about the legality of Morroblivion when Galadrielle went there seeking to form a team with common goals.
But in fact to me Silgrad's work is on the same legal level as Morroblivion, hehe but it had Beth's blessing (you said it)...
Anyways their EULA is not the Law, for what concerns me I live in a free country and I can convert whatever I want as long as it is for personal use. Beth is not a God-Like entity nor a State, it's a company.
And the relationship between the company and its customers is never mono-directional.
And if it is mono-directional we are the strong part because Oblivion is not the only good rpg on the face of the Earth; if the "elite" (modders, game reviewers, dealers, etc.) shifts to another company's game, their future works will have a great handicap... or worse.
Stop insulting us please, we have the right to say our word, worm82075 you have your rights to be an integralist or a zealot but please don't be offensive.
Your post sounds a little bit too emotive to me.
I'm not a supporter of Silgrad Tower, they are doing an hard and respectable work, but I think it will remain incomplete (As its predecessor) and on a low overall quality level (imo).
They whined on their forums about the legality of Morroblivion when Galadrielle went there seeking to form a team with common goals.
But in fact to me Silgrad's work is on the same legal level as Morroblivion, hehe but it had Beth's blessing (you said it)...
Anyways their EULA is not the Law, for what concerns me I live in a free country and I can convert whatever I want as long as it is for personal use. Beth is not a God-Like entity nor a State, it's a company.
And the relationship between the company and its customers is never mono-directional.
And if it is mono-directional we are the strong part because Oblivion is not the only good rpg on the face of the Earth; if the "elite" (modders, game reviewers, dealers, etc.) shifts to another company's game, their future works will have a great handicap... or worse.
Stop insulting us please, we have the right to say our word, worm82075 you have your rights to be an integralist or a zealot but please don't be offensive.
QUOTE(dikr @ Feb 7 2008, 11:29 AM)
I guess everyone is entitled on their opinion, worm82075. I stand by mine. Restricting files being used between separate bethesda games should be perfectly fine for the non-commercial modding community. We can use the MW files for MW mods, the Oblivion files for Oblivion mods, but we can't exchange them. These restrictions I view as legal bickering and they derive from the open game concept which the Elderscrolls game represent for me.
Silgrad Tower is a great project, Morroblivion as well. They both serve in their different ways to vastly expand our gameworld and expand on the richness of the Oblivion game.
I don't care if you think we shouldn't question their decision in this matter. Of course, they might stand in their legal right but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to agree or like it. I agree with you that any criticism should be decent and constructive. Acting like spoiled kids doesn't do us any good.
Silgrad Tower is a great project, Morroblivion as well. They both serve in their different ways to vastly expand our gameworld and expand on the richness of the Oblivion game.
I don't care if you think we shouldn't question their decision in this matter. Of course, they might stand in their legal right but that doesn't necessarily mean that we have to agree or like it. I agree with you that any criticism should be decent and constructive. Acting like spoiled kids doesn't do us any good.
Much respect to you for the manner in which you replied and much respect for your point of view as well. I do not like this any more than you do but the fact still remains that Bethesda's hands are tied in this matter. As I said, If they don't keep their employees happy by protecting their creative works then those people will simply go to another company that will and Bethesda will be left with very few programmers to make new games.
QUOTE(Galahaut @ Feb 7 2008, 11:41 AM)
Ah yes, the classic and incorrect belief that all laws are correct, should be enforced at all times, and should be blindly followed and accepted.
I DO NOT in anyway think that way. Case in point, Marijuana Prohibition, total farking bull sheet. I will not get into the specifics (unless challenged) but suffice it to say that if you had the slightest bit of respect for the game designers and programmers that made The TES games you would see that this law protects them and not Bethesda, who, like many have said only stand to gain money from this, but you need to accept that it would be at the cost of their production team and that would mean NO TES V. Nobody wants that and all the lack luster faiths out there will run right out and buy TES V, then proceed to moan and groan about the limitations of that release while anticipating the next. You have to look at something from all angles in order understand it truly and to accept what can't be changed.
I hardly think the artists and designers of Morrowind would be offended by their work being enjoyed enough to be re-used for non-commercial purposes in another game with their hard work.
But please continue your slippery slope fallacies.
But please continue your slippery slope fallacies.
QUOTE(Distonico @ Feb 7 2008, 12:19 PM)
Stop insulting us please, we have the right to say our word, worm82075 you have your rights to be an integralist or a zealot but please don't be offensive.
First of all, let me just apologize if I have Insulted you or anyone else in anyway as that is not my intention. I did not intend to join a debate I was just giving my opinion on the whole situation. I am guilty perhaps of doing more than that by stating facts in hopes of getting people to see the whole picture rather than just seeing this all from a gamers perspective.
Just for the record though that statement is itself very offensive. I never claimed to be an itegralist or a zealot. Labels are very offensive to most people. Label me if you must but that doesn't change the facts in this case. Lucky for you I am easily irritated but not easily offended.
QUOTE
I'm not a supporter of Silgrad Tower, they are doing an hard and respectable work, but I think it will remain incomplete (As its predecessor) and on a low overall quality level (imo).
They whined on their forums about the legality of Morroblivion when Galadrielle went there seeking to form a team with common goals.
But in fact to me Silgrad's work is on the same legal level as Morroblivion, hehe but it had Beth's blessing (you said it)...
They whined on their forums about the legality of Morroblivion when Galadrielle went there seeking to form a team with common goals.
But in fact to me Silgrad's work is on the same legal level as Morroblivion, hehe but it had Beth's blessing (you said it)...
Do you know why Silgrad has Bethesda's blessing? Because they asked for it. Lesson to learn there for all who wish to push the limits of EULA. Just ask, if they say no then you haven't wasted your time or gotten the hopes of the community up for something that is going to be snatched away.
QUOTE
Ehm worm82075 dude, try to "recreate" a famous song from a famous singer and see what happens...
Happens all the time, it's called a "cover". It is widely accepted it the music industry. Take the actual recording and put in on your album and sell it and that would be more a kin to what we are talking about.
QUOTE
Anyways their EULA is not the Law, for what concerns me I live in a free country and I can convert whatever I want as long as it is for personal use. Beth is not a God-Like entity nor a State, it's a company.
Forgive me as this will probably be insulting to you, but if you don't view The EULA as law, then you probably don't see anything wrong with downloading pirated music and movies so long as it for your own personal use. It's still Illegal.
QUOTE(Galahaut @ Feb 7 2008, 01:04 PM)
I hardly think
Yeah, I can tell. You obviously know nothing about the inner workings of the gaming industry or big business in America. I suggest you do some research on the subject and since you like to use big words like fallacies, perhaps you would like to provide some logical facts to prove that my statements are indeed fallicitic.
I now see the position that the Almighty Hellbird was in and I see the path he took before me. Alternatively I will take the high road and will not respond here again as I have said all that I need to. If you should like to debate this further, then by all means PM me with all your horrific ranting insults. I warn you though you had best do your homework and come to the table with cold hard facts if you wish to get the last word.
I see your point, but I have a totally different conception of the legal powers of a company like Beth.
I'm from Italy and, believe it or not, downloading copyrighted music, movies and games is perfectly legal (for personal use), and even sharing them is not considered a crime (even though is not legal when it causes a certified economic damage), as our Supreme Court stated.
On a extremely personal note: I'm an old fan of TES (like the majority of people here), for many reasons I bought their games since Daggerfall (i.e. I gave them my money spontaneously, in some way financing they future projects) and I don't like to be treated like this.
Imo they should communicate more with customers with an open minded point of view that goes further than a short 4 lines "dictat"; this could be a way to conquer the most savage and piracy ruled market and to not risk to lose their true fans across the world.
QUOTE(worm82075 @ Feb 7 2008, 06:20 PM)
Forgive me as this will probably be insulting to you, but if you don't view The EULA as law, then you probably don't see anything wrong with downloading pirated music and movies so long as it for your own personal use. It's still Illegal.
I'm from Italy and, believe it or not, downloading copyrighted music, movies and games is perfectly legal (for personal use), and even sharing them is not considered a crime (even though is not legal when it causes a certified economic damage), as our Supreme Court stated.
On a extremely personal note: I'm an old fan of TES (like the majority of people here), for many reasons I bought their games since Daggerfall (i.e. I gave them my money spontaneously, in some way financing they future projects) and I don't like to be treated like this.
Imo they should communicate more with customers with an open minded point of view that goes further than a short 4 lines "dictat"; this could be a way to conquer the most savage and piracy ruled market and to not risk to lose their true fans across the world.
everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's called freedom of speech. I think it's in constitution. Very well lets set up torrents rapidshare links and whatever else needs it to be.
I for one do not intend to make it worthwhile to Bethesda when they release their new game unless they change their statement about this. Even tho the modding community doesn't cover that much buyers it will still cause some impact (money wise) to Bethesda. Mark my words ,this will not go unnoticed in gaming magazines when they start writing their reviews ...
I for one do not intend to make it worthwhile to Bethesda when they release their new game unless they change their statement about this. Even tho the modding community doesn't cover that much buyers it will still cause some impact (money wise) to Bethesda. Mark my words ,this will not go unnoticed in gaming magazines when they start writing their reviews ...
"Yeah, I can tell. You obviously know nothing about the inner workings of the gaming industry or big business in America. I suggest you do some research on the subject and since you like to use big words like fallacies, perhaps you would like to provide some logical facts to prove that my statements are indeed fallicitic."
Oh, I suppose you work at Bethesda, then, and know their inner workings? Cool.
By the way, fallicitic is not a word. I believe you are looking for fallacious.
"I now see the position that the Almighty Hellbird was in and I see the path he took before me. Alternatively I will take the high road and will not respond here again as I have said all that I need to. If you should like to debate this further, then by all means PM me with all your horrific ranting insults. I warn you though you had best do your homework and come to the table with cold hard facts if you wish to get the last word."
Oh yes, describing your argument as a fallacy is a "horrific ranting insult!" Is a horrific ranting insult something like "you don't think?" Perhaps it is something more along the lines of calling disagreement with Bethesda's decision "moaning and groaning." On the other hand, maybe it is making the false assumption that anyone who disagrees with Bethesda's decision must not respect game developers. Perhaps it is the false assertion that believing EULAs are unlawful is equivalent to supporting piracy.
So please, continue to make blanket generalizations from your holier-than-thou pedestal without any factual support. It just functions to invalidate most of your poor arguments.
Oh, I suppose you work at Bethesda, then, and know their inner workings? Cool.
By the way, fallicitic is not a word. I believe you are looking for fallacious.
"I now see the position that the Almighty Hellbird was in and I see the path he took before me. Alternatively I will take the high road and will not respond here again as I have said all that I need to. If you should like to debate this further, then by all means PM me with all your horrific ranting insults. I warn you though you had best do your homework and come to the table with cold hard facts if you wish to get the last word."
Oh yes, describing your argument as a fallacy is a "horrific ranting insult!" Is a horrific ranting insult something like "you don't think?" Perhaps it is something more along the lines of calling disagreement with Bethesda's decision "moaning and groaning." On the other hand, maybe it is making the false assumption that anyone who disagrees with Bethesda's decision must not respect game developers. Perhaps it is the false assertion that believing EULAs are unlawful is equivalent to supporting piracy.
So please, continue to make blanket generalizations from your holier-than-thou pedestal without any factual support. It just functions to invalidate most of your poor arguments.
QUOTE(Galahaut @ Feb 7 2008, 02:55 PM)
By the way, fallicitic is not a word. I believe you are looking for fallacious.
You got me, hey wouldn't be fun to read all of my posts and count up how many times I've made up words. You can even have a pool to bet how many that will be.
QUOTE
Is a horrific ranting insult something like "you don't think?"
Perhaps it is the false assertion that believing EULAs are unlawful is equivalent to supporting piracy.
Perhaps it is the false assertion that believing EULAs are unlawful is equivalent to supporting piracy.
.
Yes it is, I was out of line and I'm sorry.
In my defense you responded to my post not the other way around.
QUOTE(Galahaut @ Feb 7 2008, 11:41 AM)
Ah yes, the classic and incorrect belief that all laws are correct, should be enforced at all times, and should be blindly followed and accepted.
I did not put my opinion up for debate, however I did snap off rather harshly on those that would taint this site with talk of continuing down the road that has been closed. Again I was out of line and do apoligize. Who am I to disagree with others rocking the boat that I am currently seated in.
QUOTE
So please, continue to make blanket generalizations from your holier-than-thou pedestal without any factual support. It just functions to invalidate most of your poor arguments
As far as I can tell you don' t have an argument.
QUOTE(Galahaut @ Feb 4 2008, 04:17 PM)
That is frankly absurd, and clear abuse of intellectual property law. Bethesda lawyers need to go back to school.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:29 PM' post='372780']
Trademark, indeed, must be "defended." There is no such restriction/policy for copyright or other forms of intellectual property.
However, that is irrelevant, as there is simply no trademark violation here. The purpose of trademark is to eliminate or reduce the misleading of customers. There is no legal argument that an obviously third-party utility which requires copies of the two "intellectual properties" would result in consumers believing it is sanctioned by Bethesda, just as all mods are obviously not trademark violations.
In terms of copyright, there is again, no real violation, as the "new" content is neither being distributed nor made available.
The legal enforceability of EULAs is not very established, and in all likelihood, this would be laughed out of court. Unfortunately, Bethesda assumes (correctly) that something like this will never actually reach a court, so they simply (ab)use their "rights" to bully others.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 4 2008, 07:16 PM' post='372817']
Oh, hoots, I certainly agree that it is a horrible business decision. This is what happens when you let lawyers run the company instead of businessmen.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 5 2008, 12:28 PM' post='373248']
There is simply no legal necessity for this decision. Please stop pretending that there is.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 5 2008, 01:01 PM' post='373262']
Poor Gstaff is stuck regurgitating the BS being sent to him by Bethesda's uneducated lawyers.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 6 2008, 12:50 AM' post='373638']
Don't forget that these are, probably, the same ignorant lawyers who instituted the laughable "adult content" policy on the Bethesda forums. That policy is so awful that it is now widely ignored by the vast majority of users, and not truly enforced by the moderators.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 6 2008, 01:37 PM' post='373907']
Bethesda is welcome to release TESV without a construction set and lose a substantial portion of their fanbase and sales.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 4 2008, 06:29 PM' post='372780']
Trademark, indeed, must be "defended." There is no such restriction/policy for copyright or other forms of intellectual property.
However, that is irrelevant, as there is simply no trademark violation here. The purpose of trademark is to eliminate or reduce the misleading of customers. There is no legal argument that an obviously third-party utility which requires copies of the two "intellectual properties" would result in consumers believing it is sanctioned by Bethesda, just as all mods are obviously not trademark violations.
In terms of copyright, there is again, no real violation, as the "new" content is neither being distributed nor made available.
The legal enforceability of EULAs is not very established, and in all likelihood, this would be laughed out of court. Unfortunately, Bethesda assumes (correctly) that something like this will never actually reach a court, so they simply (ab)use their "rights" to bully others.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 4 2008, 07:16 PM' post='372817']
Oh, hoots, I certainly agree that it is a horrible business decision. This is what happens when you let lawyers run the company instead of businessmen.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 5 2008, 12:28 PM' post='373248']
There is simply no legal necessity for this decision. Please stop pretending that there is.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 5 2008, 01:01 PM' post='373262']
Poor Gstaff is stuck regurgitating the BS being sent to him by Bethesda's uneducated lawyers.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 6 2008, 12:50 AM' post='373638']
Don't forget that these are, probably, the same ignorant lawyers who instituted the laughable "adult content" policy on the Bethesda forums. That policy is so awful that it is now widely ignored by the vast majority of users, and not truly enforced by the moderators.
quote name='Galahaut' date='Feb 6 2008, 01:37 PM' post='373907']
Bethesda is welcome to release TESV without a construction set and lose a substantial portion of their fanbase and sales.
A lot of strong opinions but no factual argument to speak of. I guess we are both guilty of being an ass. Me more so than you of course because I was not at all polite about it. Seems I could still learn a thing or two. Sorry for all the BS bro, no hard feelings huh? If it's any consolation I'm just as upset with Zenmax Inc. for refusing to let me make an off line version of the TES CS Wiki. I do understand their reasoning though and no matter what you say you can't change the law without due process and simply saying it isn't right does not nullify it.
That is just my opinion though, and according to my wife it doesn't matter a lick.
Peace.
Okay.
What a bunch of carebears. sigh ^_^
Yep, the elder scrolls community knows drama alright. 
My theory about this whole thing is as follows...
When Bethesda released Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind they included certain licensed material with it (textures, sound files or whatever else they didn't originally make themselves.) That material would still fundamentally be owned by the third party licensors. So, when Bethesda purchased the licenses to use this material they most likely only purchased the rights to include it in Morrowind. But now, with Morroblivion, it's suddenly possible to use this third party licensed material in Oblivion, where it was never intended to be used. This would, if Bethesda doesn't do anything to stop it, allow the original license holders to sue Bethesda for breaking or failing to enforce their original license agreements. If only just to get a share of the Oblivion profits.
That's my theory on why they are doing this. But unfortunately, Bethesda is probably not in a very good position to discuss (or confirm/deny) any of this publically, especially not on an internet forum. You know, legalities, NDA's and all that. Running a major, high profile business isn't always all that easy, especially not when you have to deal with lawsuit happy litigators.
By making such a fuss about it we ourselves are probably making it less and less likely that the next TES game will even have a construction set. Even if it means (marginally) less sales. XBox 360 sales of Oblivion is said to have dwarfed the PC sales anyway so I doubt cutting out the TESCS will keep Bethesda from making a pretty decent profit from TES5 anyway.
Also, I am (and I'm probably not alone here, unless the world has suddenly gone paranoid around me) positively and 100% sure that Bethesda doesn't do a major community intervention like this out of spite, just because they can, or because Dr. Evil and his henchmen are all secret members of the Zenimax board of directors and they are plotting for a total world takeover, starting with the Elder Scrolls modding community.
I've been a part of the ES community for quite some time and I've always found it a nice, friendly community. But these days, sadly... So. Much. Paranoia.
(Also, if everyone here is going to waste your energy arguing about something, could you at least spend it arguing about why we don't administer free malaria medicine to the third world population, why there's nothing being done about human rights in many of our third world dictatorships or why we still, in the western world, buy products produced by child labour in poor countries? This whole "Morroblivion" discussion, in comparison and when looked at from a broader perspective, is utterly trivial and not worthy of 145 posts of heated arguments.)
Cheers, UQF
My theory about this whole thing is as follows...
When Bethesda released Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind they included certain licensed material with it (textures, sound files or whatever else they didn't originally make themselves.) That material would still fundamentally be owned by the third party licensors. So, when Bethesda purchased the licenses to use this material they most likely only purchased the rights to include it in Morrowind. But now, with Morroblivion, it's suddenly possible to use this third party licensed material in Oblivion, where it was never intended to be used. This would, if Bethesda doesn't do anything to stop it, allow the original license holders to sue Bethesda for breaking or failing to enforce their original license agreements. If only just to get a share of the Oblivion profits.
That's my theory on why they are doing this. But unfortunately, Bethesda is probably not in a very good position to discuss (or confirm/deny) any of this publically, especially not on an internet forum. You know, legalities, NDA's and all that. Running a major, high profile business isn't always all that easy, especially not when you have to deal with lawsuit happy litigators.
By making such a fuss about it we ourselves are probably making it less and less likely that the next TES game will even have a construction set. Even if it means (marginally) less sales. XBox 360 sales of Oblivion is said to have dwarfed the PC sales anyway so I doubt cutting out the TESCS will keep Bethesda from making a pretty decent profit from TES5 anyway.
Also, I am (and I'm probably not alone here, unless the world has suddenly gone paranoid around me) positively and 100% sure that Bethesda doesn't do a major community intervention like this out of spite, just because they can, or because Dr. Evil and his henchmen are all secret members of the Zenimax board of directors and they are plotting for a total world takeover, starting with the Elder Scrolls modding community.
I've been a part of the ES community for quite some time and I've always found it a nice, friendly community. But these days, sadly... So. Much. Paranoia.
(Also, if everyone here is going to waste your energy arguing about something, could you at least spend it arguing about why we don't administer free malaria medicine to the third world population, why there's nothing being done about human rights in many of our third world dictatorships or why we still, in the western world, buy products produced by child labour in poor countries? This whole "Morroblivion" discussion, in comparison and when looked at from a broader perspective, is utterly trivial and not worthy of 145 posts of heated arguments.)
Cheers, UQF
QUOTE(UQForgotten @ Feb 7 2008, 04:53 PM)
By making such a fuss about it we ourselves are probably making it less and less likely that the next TES game will even have a construction set. Even if it means (marginally) less sales. XBox 360 sales of Oblivion is said to have dwarfed the PC sales anyway so I doubt cutting out the TESCS will keep Bethesda from making a pretty decent profit from TES5 anyway.
I don't see Bethesda wanting to go down that road even if it makes things more simple for them. A loss of profit is never a good thing and despite the seeming prevalence of console owners in the post-Oblivion fanbase, PC users still made up a good chunk of their profit.
QUOTE(Mathias Jerick @ Feb 7 2008, 11:14 PM)
QUOTE(UQForgotten @ Feb 7 2008, 04:53 PM)
By making such a fuss about it we ourselves are probably making it less and less likely that the next TES game will even have a construction set. Even if it means (marginally) less sales. XBox 360 sales of Oblivion is said to have dwarfed the PC sales anyway so I doubt cutting out the TESCS will keep Bethesda from making a pretty decent profit from TES5 anyway.
I don't see Bethesda wanting to go down that road even if it makes things more simple for them. A loss of profit is never a good thing and despite the seeming prevalence of console owners in the post-Oblivion fanbase, PC users still made up a good chunk of their profit.
You'd be surprised; they're seriously contemplating not releasing one for FO3 as far as I'm aware so if not for FO3, perhaps not for ES:V as well.
"You'd be surprised; they're seriously contemplating not releasing one for FO3 as far as I'm aware so if not for FO3, perhaps not for ES:V as well."
*shivers*
Doom scenario indeed.
I'd be interested however in what way the total hours of game play of Oblivion on pc's and consoles compare. Of course, many more console copies have been sold, but the TESCS gives the pc version a much bigger replay value; by the time the average console copy of Oblivion is gathering dust on a shelf, the average pc player is expanding his game with loads of ever better modifications.
Naturally, Bethesda doesn't earn any more money from people playing their games longer than average. But, if they could combine the concept of a highly modifiable game with a pay to play / part online version, they might attract a bigger pc crowd. Hell, I would even pay extra for a TESCS
*shivers*
Doom scenario indeed.
I'd be interested however in what way the total hours of game play of Oblivion on pc's and consoles compare. Of course, many more console copies have been sold, but the TESCS gives the pc version a much bigger replay value; by the time the average console copy of Oblivion is gathering dust on a shelf, the average pc player is expanding his game with loads of ever better modifications.
Naturally, Bethesda doesn't earn any more money from people playing their games longer than average. But, if they could combine the concept of a highly modifiable game with a pay to play / part online version, they might attract a bigger pc crowd. Hell, I would even pay extra for a TESCS
I'm thinking more episodic gaming i.e. instead of releasing, in my opinion, crappy and useless DLC's that skilled members of the community can already produce, release regular KotN type mods/expansions that expand on the original storyline. That way the construction set and DLC's compliment each other; while the community waits for another DLC they can produce their own modifications for current stuff.
QUOTE(Dark0ne @ Feb 4 2008, 07:48 PM)
Sadly today I have been requested by Bethesda Softworks to pull the mod "Morroblivion" from the site as it breaches the EULA for Oblivion. Matt Grandstaff explained the situation:
The situation is unfortunate, as Morroblivion was a great tool I'm sure made with the best of intentions, but the rights to this content belong to Bethesda Softworks and they are perfectly within their rights to make such requests. While I'm pretty liberal when it comes to the content allowed on the site (nudity, violence, etc. etc.) when it comes to copyrights and content ownership I have to draw the line.
Hopefully you can all appreciate the situation. If you believe a file you're looking at is in breach of copyright or takes content from Morrowind, or any other game, please use the "Report this file" feature to inform the staff on the site so it does not potentially affect myself and the site itself.
Thank you.
Update
Before locking a topic on the official forums about Morroblivion, moderator Dogsbody has provided further clarification on the matter:
It is evident many users are upset by the decision and many of us, myself included, were wondering why exactly this had to be done. Hopefully this helps patch things up. I stand by the comment that providing this information from the offset, rather than it being weeded out of different people gradually, can only bring good things. Communication communication communication.
QUOTE
Essentially, we let folks mod our games like Morrowind or Oblivion, but we don’t allow for folks to take content from another game and put it into a new game – even if they own both copies, and even if it's one of our own games.
The situation is unfortunate, as Morroblivion was a great tool I'm sure made with the best of intentions, but the rights to this content belong to Bethesda Softworks and they are perfectly within their rights to make such requests. While I'm pretty liberal when it comes to the content allowed on the site (nudity, violence, etc. etc.) when it comes to copyrights and content ownership I have to draw the line.
Hopefully you can all appreciate the situation. If you believe a file you're looking at is in breach of copyright or takes content from Morrowind, or any other game, please use the "Report this file" feature to inform the staff on the site so it does not potentially affect myself and the site itself.
Thank you.
Update
Before locking a topic on the official forums about Morroblivion, moderator Dogsbody has provided further clarification on the matter:
QUOTE
There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own.
It is evident many users are upset by the decision and many of us, myself included, were wondering why exactly this had to be done. Hopefully this helps patch things up. I stand by the comment that providing this information from the offset, rather than it being weeded out of different people gradually, can only bring good things. Communication communication communication.
I don't get it about the explanation. Morroblivion, and by that I mean the Galadrielle's converter tools are not owned by Bethesda, they contain no Bethesda materials.
For sure any Morrowind converted content produced with Morroblivion tools remains the property of Bethesda, and on these they have all right to ask community website to remove such hosted Material.
But once again, Morroblivion tools themselves are not the property of Bethesda, nor it contains copyrighted Bethesda materials. They can only ask "kindly" website owner to remove them if the owner wishes. But tha'ts nothing linked at all with the Morrowind EULA.
So while I evidently understand why they would have banned discussion about such tools on their official forum, on which they are responsable because they might be considered liable for promoting the non-respect of the various license they may have contracted with other companies, they're a not responsable for third parties websites.
At best, I could understand a dispute on the "Morroblivion" name since both "Morrowind" and "Oblivion" are registred, or eventually a patent breach because the Morroblivion tools may use illegaly some patented technology ( lol ).
By the way I'm not criticizing DarkOne's acceptance to follow Betheda's orders. First DarkOne has its own reason, it is his own website, and it's not like I pay to use it. Secondly, if DarkOne did not comply, TesNexus would be removed from the "official" linked community site. And at last, I don't think it would be a good thing to start battling (for nothing at end) with Bethesda for the community while (according to feedback I noticed so far because I'm new around ), they seems enough permissive with other mods and it would be counterproductive to enter in opposition with them.
But is it that hard for Bethesda to send a simple mail to the community/webmaster explaining the reason why they can't allow such tools discussion on their forum, and also why Bethesda can't link to other third parties website that might promote such tools, without using some diverted legal aspect ?
Clearly what I dislike is the way it is done, throwing in some EULA text that does not apply on Morroblivion tools, playing on the confusion between the tools and the contents produced with it, to make it looks like it is legal for them to force a website to remove Morroblivion tools while they have no rights on them.
Anyway, I just hope the converter tool project to be continued and improved somewhere else, so we can all enjoy more Elder Scrolls goodness.
Go on Galadrielle
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.