IMHO

Many cultures on this planet have rights of passage that facilitate the
integration of a person into adulthood. Perhaps these rights are not as
uncivilized as we "civil people" have been lead to believe. Perhaps a
ceremonial challenge can help us embrace our whole nature in a way that
is much more healthy than say a Catechism or a B'nai Mitzvah.


We humans are very close to being wild creatures. No matter what we
are told by theologians and philosophers we must come to terms with the
"beast" that inhabits us. By beast I mean the visceral instinctive part of our selves,
that is just as valuable, real and worthy as the "higher nature" we are
constantly told we really are. I believe this nature should be embraced and respected.


I believe that by embracing our beast we can become integrated and
that when we try to deny the beast we become unclean, un-integrated and
dangerous. I also believe that the right of passage should be a time
when a human being learns to recognize accept and integrate with there
animal nature. And that when this integration is coupled with wisdom
and understanding and guidelines; when the passage means that things
really change with true consequences the child can integrate and become
whole and adult.

If you think about it, we do have a rite of passage. It's not like going out into the wild for a week with no supplies, or killing an animal with our bear hands, or anything like that; it's graduating from high school. Most people graduate from high school at age 18, the universal age of adulthood, and anyone who doesn't graduate lives a very crappy life in a dead end job living paycheck to paycheck. People who do graduate [usually] live better lives, especially if they move on to college.

Yea, OK... but to me 17 0r 18 seems a bit late for the type of thing I'm talking about. It seems to me that modern humanity is missing the mark. I believe timing is crucial to healthy development. Not every one developers at the same rate but we all pass through stages of change that can not be revisited.

_{Following is a run on sentence}
For most preindustrial societies that observe the types of rites of integration I am concerned with, the right time is near puberty and not 5 or 6 years later. And, if all that was needed was graduation from high school then I feel that far fewer teens would be suffering, anorexic, depressed, suicidal and or worse. Perhaps there would be no need for metal detectors in the entrances of middle and high schools if we didn't deny or ignore the fact that we are animals as well as people.

I am only saying that there are certain times when a person can best face aspects of there own nature and once that time has passed it may be much harder to integrate, successfully, the aspects of one's personality.

It's funny the things you learn in life. You often forget if you really learned it from someone else or if you just figured it out for yourself. Sometimes you don't even know you know something until someone asks you, then you realize that you already knew it.

Yes, we're animals. We're much closer to animals than gods. Almost everything that we think makes us different from animals is really just a very, very small improvement over what animals already have. There's only one thing that is really and truly unique about people, and it is very simple: We know we will die some day. That's the only thing that is really and truly different about us. All of our "humanity" comes from that one bit of knowledge - anything else is just wishful thinking.

-Jumonji

What about knowing who we are? We know we're animals, and we know we evolved from animals. Animals don't know that. They just know that they exist.

Sorry - I just realized I strayed way off topic and didn't address the initial question!

I agree - we need a better transition from childhood to adulthood. It's been getting older and older, especially the last 50 years. They even made a  movie about it - "Failure to Launch" - about a guy who hasn't matured even though he's in his 30's. That just shows how far we've gone.

I think a big part of it is that we don't give people any real responsiblities any more until they're out of college. Used to be that kids did farm chores as soon as they could walk, and then they were ready to have families at 15, not 50. But without any sense of being responsible for your own upkeep, why should kids ever stop playing? Playing is a lot more fun than being a grownup! Being a grownup is hard. But - it is a lot deeper and more prideful, in a good way, than just winning a game.

Read Joseph Cambel's books on the value of Myth - he talks about the symbolism of these transitions and how important they are. There was also a tv s
ow about it.

-Jumonji

Good points. I just think that the knowledge of our death is really the source of all that. If we didn't know that we die, we would never even think of evolution. It all comes from that one bit of knowledge.

Also, animals don't really "know" they exist, unless you mean that in an existential sense... 

Re:"Failure to Launch"
Thanks Jumonji I'll have to check out that film. And the real responsibilities are very important the challenge or right of transition has to be real and important to the individual and the consequences of failure must have impact. But in a free society it may not be possible to impose strict rules that can be enforced in a way that truly matters to an adolescent.
The special intervention camps for troubled teens may have some of the right elements to provide a life changing experience. Perhaps by taking the best elements from the cultures referenced in my OP and combining them with the best aspects of the modern intervention camps; a range of options might be made available for families that want this type of experience.

The Secular coming of age ceremonies and most Religious initiation rites seem to be just an extention of study and not much more meaningful than school. I believe that a right of passage must be a true test of a person. It has to have deep meaning and lasting consequences.

RE: The knowledge of our death:

Yes Jumonji facing death Is a big part of many of the traditional rights of passage and perhaps that is the meat of what I mean by true or real consequences. For the experience to approach the efficacy of the Vision quest or the other Coming of age rites the subject must be fully engaged in he experience and it must fit into that persons belief system.

It seems that in many cultures the traditional rights of passage have been exclusive to young men and that women are not allowed to participate. I don't think that is right and fitting in todays society. Perhaps It is not right period. Other rituals imposed on women in my limited view are just plain cruelty and, IMO,do not fit in the spirit of this discussion.

Jumonji: Japanese word meaning "cross"?


Yes good point ninja_lord666, who are we. That has to fall into the realm of belief systems to a certain point. The word "know" is a good place to focus for a moment. I say I know that I am 6 feet tall. But, until I have tested that fact to its fullest extent by leaping and crouching under and lying on a surface and ducking an opponents blow, I do not KNOW that I am 6 feet tall and that my reach is 3 feet from my core and How this is Important. Perhaps a good true right of passage should help us truly KNOW how to KNOW ourselves.

I am rambaling:

As I research this subject I keep finding more I want to convey here and I am rambaling> Sorry I need to get some coffee and rearrange my thoughts...

Man is an animal.

To embrace the beast within is to accept it's existence and even learn to let your darkside out while still being in control. One must learn not only to be bad, but when to be bad how to keep it in check.

Very Good! You're the first person I've ever had to pick up on that. "Jumonji no kamae: is used in American Ninjutsu to refer to an aggressive attack stance with your arms crossed. It's the first position in Fire Mode (of the 5 combat modes, water, wind, fire, earth, and void.) I started using that name online when I was awarded my black belt.

-Jumonji

Jūmonji (十文字, Jūmonji?) :^) Jumonji no kamae
[Bujinkan Budo] Kihon Happo - Jumonji


Marcus Wolfe: your point reminds me of Balance.? Yes the wise integration of the hole person leads to grace and wisdom. To channel ones "bad" into good for all. Or if ones path is "evil" then to prevent the beast from destroying the person?

Wow, you need to work on punctuation/grammar.

Anyways, the Samurai masters of old could enter a state where they literally killed without thinking. Countless drills and hours training let them leave all the physical movements to the instincts, removing the hesitation of human thinking. Or so they say. I know a guy, the sensei at the dojo I go to, who has actually entered this state. It was only one movement (roundhouse to the head), but he still amazed himself.

Now, somebody who could such terrible things without as much as a thought might be classified as psychologically unstable, but that is not the description of a samurai. Indeed, because samurai were often poets and artists, they managed to find some positive stress management methods that let them balance out their destructive capabilities.

I hope I've digested all that has appeared in this thread so far. If I'm being redundant, apologies in advance. It's a good debate to be having.

Tribal societies were- and still are, where they are still in existence- essentially pagan. Pagans could be said to be more in touch with the elemental aspects of their existence and how they react to them. That is arguable.

Nearly all of us have ceased to belong to 'tribes', in the anthropological sense. We belong to 'communities' in which the smallest unit, the family, probably contains most, if not all, of the rituals of passage that most of us will experience. And these modern rites have little or nothing to do with coming of age in a natural environment. They are rites of sociobility which, supposedly, help us to fit in with the people we're most likely to come in contact with.

All families are the same, and all families are different - to paraphrase badly. So that there can, no longer, be Rites of Passage, in the universal sense that I think you are implying. Unless, of course, we revert to tribalism. And are forced to accept the socio-fascist pressures that Tribes impose on their members. ( I'll probably get in trouble for the 'fascist' part of that) Conform or be banished: the worst thing that could happen to a member of a tribe.

Of course, if we keep messing up the earth in the ways that we are, we may be reverting to Tribalism sooner than some would have thought possible. Or desirable. And I wouldn't like to dwell too much on what form the Rites of Passage would take in THAT world. Unless I could be one of the Elders.

OK Chesto thanks for your input,...what I really meant to say...
Well, I think I said it. But to clarify; I believe that modern society has discounted a powerful force that is part of a humans physical and psychological core. I am saying when some people miss the opportunity to come to terms with this natural force and fail to integrate that nature with the norms and morays of an industrial society, problems can, like stains, get ground in and set, so to speak. But if, as part of their beliefs systems, as a public ceremony or family tradition they can take advantage of the stages of life most conducive to integration, much can be done to prevent lasting problems with transition.<_{another run on sentence, sorry}

I have no problem With "pagans" and no little respect.
I could only hope to find a bit of "rural" space in this world to inhabit in peace. The negative connotation attributed to being pagan makes me cringe. The world is full of examples of how industrialized "civilized" cultures have relearned and embraced truths kept alive by the rural, rustic societies. All to often these same civilized peoples destroy the sovereignty or free pagans for there own gain.

By the above derivation one could call the Amish pagans, and their observance of Rumspringa is just the kind of timely practice I am interested in. It is perhaps not perfect but it is a way of testing self and respecting and releasing the powerful forces of animal nature so they can express and integrate with the person more freely.



I also cringe when I think of a world wholly dependent on science and industry for its support system; the very world I believe you eluded to above: Perhaps some of those Pagan ways are the key to preserving the beautiful aspects "of the country."

Yea sorry about that

I am sure the Samurai take full advantage of the times in life best suited for embracing change. They serve as a fine example of how humans can build an effective discipline with powerful results. Much care and attention must have been taken to observe and integrate the whole being.

Just goes to show how one can have bad habits for years and not know it. I've used ' PAGAN' when I should have used ' ANIMISITIC '. So, for ' pagan ' , please substitute 'animistic', which ties in with the topic better. ...I think. I suppose one could say that pagans are animistic.

Did not intend to be derogatory to pagans. At least... not any more derogatory than a secularist tends to be towards all mystical belief systems. But that is another topic for another time....

Funny, I was always taught pagan was a word to describe barbarians or people who worshiped multiple gods. Anyhow........

Rumspringa, eh? Where one is punished less harshly for misbehavior? Sounds like a believable policy. The world needs to come to terms with the fact that we teens have such poor decision making skills.

Are you a transcendentalist ?

I don't think traditional rites of passage had much to do with confronting ones animal nature. I think they had more to do with forcing a youth to confront some significant obsticle and then, through conquering it, come to terms with the understanding that they have the power of an adult to shape their own lives.

The best obsticles involved a long period of deprivation and contemplation, so the youth had time to dwell on the transition and who they wanted to be as an adult. Not that they actually think: "I wanna be like Daniel Radcliffe," but more like, "I'm not a wuss, I'm going to do it my way..." Even if "My Way" is whatever Harry would do.

Where the "animal nature" part comes into these transitional challenges is that it is an emotional experience, not a rational one. We always think that if we are acting emotionally, then we are acting like animals. And if we are doing the logical thing, then that is somehow more human? Whatever. It's not like peopleare actually rational or anything.

Amen to most of that, Jumonji. Though I'm somewhat unclear what your last sentence means. What ever 'spiritually' enhancing method was used, the real, quantifyable outcome would be more or less as you describe.

Because Rites of Initiation, Maturity, etc., took place in Tribal societies which, as I mentioned, were animistic, it was natural for 'animalism' ( is there a word?) to play a great part in the symbolism of such rituals.
To speak of getting in touch with one's animal nature could be just a desire to tap into our collective racial memory, when, to be a member of a tribe, one was always surrounded by and motivated by animal gods, and other 'nature' gods. All existing societies have travelled the tribal route at sometime in their history, either recent or ancient. It's part of our gene pool.

There are rights of passage involved in the “modern” and “industrialized” world, yet we scarcely think of them in such easy terms. Once we are out “in the real world”, we are forced to mature, adapt, or die. Many can’t ‘die’ in the literal sense, as the ‘helpless’ get all sorts of government and local aid, which to me removes such rite of passage from the picture and such individuals never truly grow up. Those who revert to needing ‘aid’ have failed to adapt, though they can relearn that trait if given the proper motivation. The issue with that is too many are lazy and softened by the modern world in such a way that they cannot understand the principles of ‘adaptation’, and instead have learned and imbued the ideas of ‘conformality’ (I will meld into society and let it carry me, instead of conquering my own life).

Humans as a species age too quickly and have too short of a life span, yet from the above mentioned, we have increased the age in which we are “mature” in a mental way though our bodies still mature at their natural age. Because of this, we do not establish ourselves until our late thirties (or whichever age is most suiting) and then decide it’s time to breed and multiply (the basic compulsion of every living thing in existence – you exist in order to breed).

Then there are those who’ve adapted instead of conformed and do not decide to breed, for they realize that it would be a burden to them or in some other way not necessary (and statistics prove at certain intelligent categories, people tend to breed a lot less than those below then). Have these people attained a proper ‘rite of passage’? I feel in some ways yes, for one doesn’t need to have offspring in order to announce they have accomplished something.

So to me, this is the true right of passage – when one realizes they are the master of themselves and can choose their own path. When one finally accepts the responsibility of living their own life and controlling it in whatever way they decide.

I agree with some of what you say, but.... Hmmm. Social Darwinism as a basis for 'true Rites of Passage' ? It could be said that people who learn to 'play the system' also experience Rites of Passage, even though the tax payer may not like the way they survive within their demi-mond.

Well I am certainly getting an education here. A good bit of reading and some reevaluation should straighten me out. I get these Ideas some times that sound good to me but in the light of day I often find I was sorely lacking in my comprehension of the facts. I suppose this means I would be terrible at debate. If I start to feel that I am wrong I tend to change my mind.

Thanks everyone for all the great input. I'll digest it and try to respond more definitively... soon.

I never really gave thought to the type if "ist" I am. If I have to choose an "ism" to fully embrace I had better do some studying.

Transcendence (philosophy) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Transcendental (Kant)) In philosophy, the adjective transcendental and the noun transcendence convey three different but related primary meanings, all of them derived from the word's literal meaning (from Latin), of climbing or going beyond: one sense that originated in Ancient philosophy, one in Medieval philosophy, and one in modern philosophy.

Transcendental Perspectivism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Transcendental Perspectivism is a hybrid philosophy developed by German born philosopher, Professor Werner Krieglstein (PhD, University of Chicago). A blending of Friedrich Nietzsche's Perspectivism and the utopian ideals of the Transcendentalism movement, Transcendental Perspectivism challenges Nietzsche's claim that there is no absolute truths while fully accepting his observation that all truth can only be known in the context of ones perception. This is accomplished through an appreciation of the emotional relationship between two perceptions (the "perceiver" and the "other").

tran·scen·den·tal·ism
–noun 1. transcendental character, thought, or language. 2. Also called transcendental philosophy. any philosophy based upon the doctrine that the principles of reality are to be discovered by the study of the processes of thought, or a philosophy emphasizing the intuitive and spiritual above the empirical: in the U.S., associated with Emerson.

transcendentalist
noun advocate of transcendentalism

OK, Today I feel like a Transcendental Perspectivist. But I reserve the right to trancend this state of being. :^)

I agree. It is true that supporting failure uncoditionaly, results in an ever growing poverty trap. A comfort zone that dulls ambition and fosters sloth.

perhaps humans physically mature to quickly to fit the needs of a society that demands a formal education that is rigorous and lengthy. If puberty coincided with the 18th birthday instead of the 10th-13th it wouldn't interfere with the forced socialization of the working class. _{Please excuse the sarcasm}

A rite of passage, as I intended to convey , a test or trial that facilitates the integration of important aspects of mind and body towards "adulthood"; maturity of mind and body given a chance to coincide. Perhaps by animal I meant body. Even I am not clear on my meanings but my intent was a better integration of self that puts more emphasis on the well being of the individual than on the expectations of society.

Well said. Please forgive this adaptation:
An effective right of passage should facilitate a persons realization that "they are the master of themselves and can choose their own path. When one finally accepts the responsibility of living their own life and controlling it in whatever way they decide."


GTG work a bit.
Thanks again, All, for your interest in this topic.
LTR :^)

NOTE: School shooting; does the subject relate to "A better path towards maturity"?