I know - we've all had it during our years of formal education, and I'm pretty positive that almost EVERYONE here will agree with me that HOMEWORK is a device that teachers use to torture their students. Believe me, I've had many a sleepless night staying up to get in that last friggin' paragraph in my g**damn essay about whatever the hell it was the teacher assigned

BUT, is it really worth the time and effort to put in countless hours trying to achieve grades that are barely passing the 70, or 60, or even 50% mark? Think hard about what your answer will be, because I'll tell you right now, there is a growing consensus amongst parents, students (obviously ), and quite a few teachers, that homework really doesn't achieve much in the way of "good" education.

For instance, do you really remember anything about what the f**k you wrote about in high school English class (I'm only 22, but I sure as hell don't remember ANYTHING from high school AT ALL, and I'm considered to be quite intelligent by many of my peers and former classmates I'm still friends with).

Now, you may think that yes, sometimes (and that's SOMETIMES) homework can help in the long run. But look at it this way - is it worth feeling stressed out and frickin' tired all day long, trying to stay awake long enough so that you can hear the teacher (who also happens to be a d**chebag) give out bulls**t assignments that you may very well fail (and I guarantee that you will), and waste time that could have been spent doing enjoyable things during the times that you really should be relaxing?

All in all, I disagree with the way young people (and our collective future) are being taught, which isn't very efficient at all. It simply does not allow young people to be creative enough and be individuals who can contribute to their communities, however they choose to. AND, it seems the what has been referred to as "common sense" isn't so common as it used to, since plenty of people who have completed their formal education are as dumb as hell (even in Canada - no offence to my American friends, but Canadians do seem to be smarter than many Americans, even though that may not even be true).

Forgive and correct me if I have this whole thing bass ackwards, I just wanted to bring the topic to light.

Science: no; English: no; History: no; Math: yes.
For the first three subject, it's just pointless busywork. Case it point, my Chemistry teacher this ear doesn't give out any homework. Period. Everyone still knows everything he's teaching us about chemistry. However, in math, I see the point. The homework acts as training for the test, and without it, You won't know how to do the equations. I don't know about you, but when my math teacher says how to do a certain type of problem, I don't instantly remember it the first time. Math, especially at higher levels, is quite confusing.
I'd type more, but I have to get to school. I'll continue when I get home.

Though I prefer to have ABSOLUTELY NO HOMEWORK, I can see the need to have homework in math, because math is not about memmorizing, it's about understanding (just like other subjects) and math requires practice.

Though I nearly always forget about my homework...


Teacher: Alright, has everybody submitted their homework?

Me (thinking to myself): S***! What homework?!

I am in high school, but have always considered homework unecessary. I am homeschooled, though, so I suppose one might say all my work is homework In case you are wondering, we are not the kind of homeschooling family that says, "Oh yes, we homeschool." but doesn't actually do anything. I have also attended public school, and find it much easier than home-schooling, although much more boring. I have never needed homework to do well, but some of my friends have and do. Anyway, I think it (homework) should be optional for everyone at the beginning of the year, but if a student is repeatedly failing, homework could be helpful, and should then be required for the academically-challenged students. If they improve, well I suppose they should still be doing it, if it is working for them.

I think some types of homework, for some types of subject, are useful. I completely agree with Ninja about the maths, it does really help. (I went from a D at GCSE to a B (the highest grade you could get on the paper I was doing) simply by getting extra homework from my teacher, doing it, and then going over what I didn't understand.

Also, for other subjects, some kinds of homework can be useful. My A-level history class had to get into groups, go home, and make a seminar, which we would have to be presented in class. The topic my group chose was Henrician government (as we were studying Henry VII), and since that, I have been able to remember all the details of Henrician government, and, it was actually quite enjoyable to do, as well. So, not all homework is bad, and I expect similar things could be done for English, Science, whatever.

I would VERY MUCH like it, if only things are as we'd like it to be. It could also give some incentive to actually do the work at school to expect free time at home. Well, I'd pretty much hope so...

I forgot to mention that the only exception is mathematics (especially Pure Math 30 and Math 31) - since math does require extra memorization (something I happen to be quite bad at ) because of its complexity at higher levels of study, I copletely understand why one would be given math homework. Of course, I "can't remember" ( ) half the things I was supposed to have studied in math.

Personally, I think school should give you homework, but not have it affect your grade at all. If you don't do it, and, subsequently get low grades on a test, that's your own fault. If you know you aren't going to do very well, that's what the homework is for. So, in essence, it's not really homework; it's a study tool. Because tests are really what matters. The goal of going to school is to be more knowledgeable, and the best way to make sure the teachers are doing their job is tests. Homework, as I said, is pointless busywork.

I absolutely agree with you Ninja - I think that probably what most school boards should do. That and to delay what time school starts by about 1-1.5 hours ('cause getting up at anywhere from 5-7AM doesn't really help students at all).

Studies show that, in teens, melatonin doesn't stop being produced until about 8:30, so school really shouldn't start until about 9.

I'm lucky, college for me starts at 9:25, heheh

Which is, IMO, the optimal time for school to start. That, or 9:00, like in a real workplace, so they get used to it.

A point that should be made is that homework need not be tedious, and quite possibly could be fun.

I did touch on that in a previous post (here), but I think I focused more on the fact that it helped me learn than on the fact it was fun. Which, thinking about it, could well have been the reason it helped me- you always learn more when you're having fun than when you're not.

That's absolutely true Schwarzenegger (get it, "The_Terminator"... "Ahnold"... "Terminator"... ah forget it ) Anyway, it seems that I only ever learn if I can actually touch something (tactile, as opposed to auditory or visual, although I also learn by listening or seeing), so I learn more if it's also fun to learn ("fun" is an "f-word" that teachers seem to despise more than the original F-word )

Just to be a complete arse and go against the general theme of the topic - homework is vital and important - because of the way our memory works.

Homework is essentially a tool to ensure that we mentally review the work we did during the day to assist in transferring this from our short to long term memories -eg hard wiring it

Unfortunately most of the people who say things like "homework didn't help me" or "see I got good marks and I didn't study" tend to have high IQ so this process of shifting things from short to long term memory is easier, but when lower IQ's try it they fail. And lower IQ's tend to do less homework due to a lifetime of this type of reinforcement - hence drop out and get poo jobs.

Ninja Lord's comment about maths is great because maths is not an intuitive subject that can be reasoned via comprehension (ie language syntax), and requires practise to learn the process and procedures to solve a problem - thats why homework helped so much.

As for all those essays Rob mentioned (awesome new sig by the way) the subject matter of those was absolutely irrelevant - the point was to learn correct punctuation, sentence structure and syntax. Thats why you can't remember the topic. A somewhat abstract example is - I cannot remember where i used to ride as a kid but I remember how to ride - it was the action an formula (syntax and structure) that you remembered not the location (topic)

Welll I'm sure I'm going to cop it for that!

I agree with mat1.
I have an IQ of 140 and I rarely study for math or programing since it's something I like and I have an easier time understanding and retaining the teacher's explanations. History on the other hand I never really liked and thus I got bored during class and had to dedicate more time studying for the exams (luckily I'm at Uni now and I don't attend history classes anymore ).

That's why I said homework should be given, but not be graded. Surely those with low IQs know enough to do the homework, or at least have parents that do. For example, in my chemistry class, there's this one girl who is completely lost, she doesn't know how to do anything, but she doesn't let that get her down. She may not be too bright, but she even stays after school to help her with chemistry.

Of course, then we have the problem of parents not caring about making their kids do well, and thus not making them do their homework. Perhaps some kind of test at the beginning of the year, and the amount of homework each pupil gets depends on their score on that test (subject to change, obviously)? I can think of a number of reasons why that wouldn't work, but I thought I'd throw the idea out there anyway, to see what people think.

@ mat1: BTW, thank you for the compliment about my sig (it's courtesy of Septim741, you can read this tread if you want one, I'm sure Septim can create something for you ). Anyway, back on track, I can see the relevancy of homework as a tool for those who are having a helluva time trying to understand and make sense of whatever it is they are trying to learn at the time. And I agree that with ninja that it should be given (depending on whether how well one student is doing throughout the year), and should NOT be subject to grading.

@ Terminator: There's simply no way that could be feasible, and unless one wants to live in a dictatorship (IE communism, fascism), then there's simply no way parents can be forced to make their kids do well in school. Given the choice between two evils, it's always better to take the lesser of the two. In this case, it's better to let a few flunkies who don't care enough about their future go about their business, than to force them to do good in school against their will... Unless, EVERYONE doesn't care to go to school and get educated, then you'd have a whole other demon on your hands

Well, actually many schools already set tests when you start school anyway, to see how clever you are, and whether you should go in top or bottom set, etc, so it wouldn't be that much different to simply use those results to decide whether you get homework or not.

are you crazy? Of course it isnt worth it. Its just a waste of time.

I really do not see the point of home work.. I mean don't we do enough work in class? Math homework is the only important home work since most of the time it is the hardest and the most important of all the classes(except of course orchestra/band).

I have to disagree. Math is not nearly as important as English. Without English. you wouldn't know proper spelling, proper grammar, how to write, or how to read. English is the one thing separating us from moron rednecks.

WHAT!? I is so mads at yous, i is a smart person even though i lives in mizzourie. Just kidding! I actually agree with Ninja, in that English is the most important subject you will study, although, you cannot deny the value of math and science. Every subject is important, just in different areas of life. It depends (somewhat) on what career path you choose. I hope to become a lawyer, so english is probably the most important subject for me. If you wished to become a biochemist, obviously you would want to study math and science more intently than english. Of course, if you don't know what you are going to do, you should just study everything.

P.S.: I am allowed to make redneck jokes, as I am technically one, and I have about 300 cousins, of which the majority live in southern Missouri and are rednecks. I grew up in California, so I escaped that.

A redneck is a state of being. What your family heritage is has no affect on whether or not you are a redneck, and, from what I've seen, you are not a redneck. 300 cousins!? What, do you rent entire cities for family reunions?

It's a shame that schools don't offer philosophy class...That would be a fun class!

Well thank you for recognizing my not being a redneck, and for correcting my false beliefs.
We actually rent out a community center for Thanksgiving and the occasional reunion. A philosophy class would quite interesting, but most 14 year olds couldn't care less about who runs the our country, nevermind something like philosophy!

Yes....I should have thought of that meself

In Croatia, philosophy classes are obligatory.
In most highschools, that is. And only on senior year, so no 14 year olds.

@freddy: English is very important to biochemists as well. In successful science, international communication is an imperative, and whether we like it or not, English is the language of international communication. Well, most of you guys probably do like it as you are native English speakers, but that's another story.

I'd say math is the most important of all classes, not that much because of the mathematical skills learned but rather adopting a way of thinking, the mathematical, rational way of thinking that tends to drive the world in a better direction, especially when combined with philosophy.

I had never thought of that, thank you! Wouldn't life be easier if there was a universal language, like in all the futuristic science fiction movies? Not suggesting English specifically, just a thought.



How about 15 year olds? I am homeschooled, and right now I am a sophomore. I turn 15 in March. Next year I will finish school, and hopefully begin college, so technically I will be a senior next year.

Although it is confusing to learn, English has the most diverse and largest vocabulary. As such, English can express more finitely specific emotions, desires, or demands making it the most complex language and the best suited for almost every aspect of communication.

Now when you mention it, my vision of ideal language system would be so that every person on the planet is at least bilingual. The first language would be a new, fabricated, very functional international language, and the second one would be the native language of the area. There are two reasons why I wouldn't agree to complete adoption of the new language as the one and only one. First one is the fact that the more languages you speak, the better you can understand the world. This is because it is very hard for people to think averbally, not using words, hence the reason why people name everything in the first place, also Inuit people (the Eskimos) have need for many different words to represent different types of snow. They have 30 or so words for snow only! Obviously people living in Africa or in most places have absolutely need for that, yet for Inuits it's non-disposable. The reason number two is literature. There is a vast wealth of literal wealth, poems, novels, etc. Translation can only be accurate in some elements, especially with poetry. You can focus on holding to the rhythm and you'll surely have to sacrifice melodiousness or the very contents.

But the idea of the additional, universal language is something I would very much like to live to see.

Okay, seems to me we're getting a bit off topic. Should someone start a new thread for this? As far as I can tell, there is at least some interest.

I don't see why not, the original topic has died, and why waste space making a new topic? What's wrong with a tangent here or there?

Okay, I must cede to your superior intellect. On a side note, how do you make the quote heading look like this- QUOTE(freddycashmercury @ Jan 21 2008, 06:44 PM)- I can't figure it out. (still a noob )



Interesting idea, but who would create the language, and would it be totally new words like newrinkongy, or a composite of several languages?

If you look on the posts, in the bottom right corner, you'll see a series of buttons. The one furthest to the right says 'reply'. Hit that.

Who would create it? We're not fortune tellers here...I highly doubt it'd be completely new words. it's most likely be a modified version of English, which is, in itself, a composite of several other languages.

Thanks for the tip!

About the English: Not really anything to add, except thanks for the reminder about it (English) already being a composite of languages. I hope a universal language is created, but it would require a huge amount of international cooperation. With the current state of world affairs, I doubt it will come anytime soon. Well, one can dream.

It's not something one man would do. If such a language ever comes to be, it will have been created by a large number of linguistics experts, as it is crucial for it to be as simple, as easy to use as it can, with simplest possible grammar that simultaneously doesn't hinder the speaker in expressing complex thoughts. English is, as ninja will surely agree, very successful at that task. The main problem about English (that I can think of at the moment, it's very late here ) is the pronunciation and spelling, which is unnecessarily complex and is such due to historical reasons, it started that way and you can't really change the way a language is written.

The hypothetical super-language would have to have the English's grammatical and syntax simplicity (because English is the best language there is when you look at grammar and syntax only), but should be phonetic, in the pronunciation=script manner. I believe most of you are aware that such languages have been fabricated before and that most successful such language is Esperanto (if you don't know about it just follow the link to Wikipedia). It originates from many languages, but the problem is the fact that practically all work was done by a single man. No single man can do the job of universal language fabrication so well that it pushes out English. (as English is almost impossible to beat because of the fact that many high ranking forces use English and it has already been incorporated into most parts of the world and human practice.)

Conclusively, the "Language" would surely have to look up to English in concerning many areas but, IMHO, shouldn't rely on its vocabulary, script and pronunciation. Vocabulary of English is overly rich to be practical for this application.

Of course the greatest barrier and obstacle that prevents Language from coming to be is, as I see it, politics, special interests not beneficial to the humankind as a whole but rather to some individual nations - although that's also too broad as the root of the whole problem can almost exclusively be found in a few individuals - power hungry, greedy and narrow minded, with a distorted view of the world. Too bad that, by some nature's strange perversion, such people are found charismatic by the mankind. If only scientists could run the world.

Sorry for drifting away. Feel free to ignore the last chapter as it is an unnecessary appendix, yet I wouldn't feel comfortable deleting it.

Well, I pretty much agree with everything you said, especially the last part, even if you thought it unnecessary. English is, almost certainly, one of the top 3 (if not the most) confusing languages in the world. The "rules" everyone learns in gradeschool have way too many exceptions, and some things just don't make sense. Anyway, it seems that either A: No one disagrees with us, or B: No one who disagrees with us has seen this thread. It would be nice to have an opposing viewpoint, although, I must confess, I can't see the argument.

Homework, how annoying, irritating, boring, ... it might be, it is very important.

First of all, schools have to teach much more than fits in the time given to them to do so. If homework didn't exist, we would have very few holidays, and very long days at school. That would result in more tired teachers and students, thus decreasing the capacity to learn.

Secondly, homework often consists of assignments. Students have different rates of making assignments, one can do something in half an hour that takes someone else an hour. If all students had to make these assignments in class, the fast ones had to wait on the slow ones, or the slow ones would never finish their assignments.

In addition, it 'tests' if the student understands the lessons. Students have to make assignments themselves, without help from others (yes, yes I know many people help eachother, but at school it would only be worse). If the student isn't capable of making the assignments himself, it is a sign the student isn't ready for this subject yet, and he needs more instructions.

Now I know homework is one of the most hated parts of school. But for some reason, I always managed to succeed with a minimum of homework. And if I am honest, I can't imagine a world without homework... I would become bored after some time...

cya

Fritz

Homework is dreaded here and there.

I think it depends on the teacher whose giving the homework or the assignments as well...
do they try to nail down on the subject or do they find a way to catch you into the assignment?

Math, for once i am doing really poor in, be it because they are a female teacher, because all my other math teachers have been male in high school [had one teacher two years though] and i've passed well..

Even having an English teacher two years in a row is a dread because of her teaching style.

Its not that i resent the homework, its how they issue it.

I understand why most teachers give it out, but some teachers push the extent at times.

There are classes i believe are essential and some that are not, we may dread it but at least it makes us all well-rounded in the end.

Homework can be a waste of the time sometimes because:
Today we got a lecture from our Math teacher, no not even our real teacher we have a long term sub, telling us thatwe need to take school more seriously, ecspecially having us be an advanced class. She said we need to do review. Well most of the time we dont realize it, but the work we get is the same as stuff we get for 2 weeks. We got the same homework assignment for the third time today. Now i am strange and keep all my assignments, so i just copied the answers. Now i may not make sense considering i am in a very...lethargic, numb mood. Most of the things we get are the same over and over.

Homework though, can be useful. I remember an incident 2 years ago in 6th grade(yes im only 13 ) we had a test. Now most of the stuff was pretty recent but i remember it was the beggining of the year and we learned something useless like finding indierect measurements. I ended up getting a D on the test. If we would have had more review work, I would likely get an A. I am in a similar situation now. I had an A, but now a D ever since my math teacher got pregenant and we got this retarded sub. So homework can be a waste of time, but also a big helper.

Well... I think that in some subjects, like maths, homeworks are real necessary, but, for example, in History... homework is useless.

For example, I'm studing Latin and Ancient Greek at high school. For me, Latin is easier than Greek because my two mother tongues are romanic languages and them come of the same root of Latin. But... Ancient Greek? It is an amusing language, but it's so difficult (abecedary, phonetics, declensions...). An exam of Greek is a translation of a text written in the language of Socrates. And if you hadn't practised, you will fail the exam.

The only constructive reason for home work is so you learn the material. For people who already know it, its just a waste of time. Personally I did about 25% of the homework assigned in highschool, but I always had great test scores, so I managed to graduate with Cs