Note: this is a copy of a thread I posted a long time ago in the Morrowind forums, but every word of this is still good advice. And lately I've been seeing a lot of mod threads with more ambition than common sense, so I think it's time to bring it back.


RULES FOR MAKING A SUCCESSFUL REQUEST:


1) Define your project: nothing is more important than this. Tell exactly what you're trying to make. Show that you've put some effort and thought into your project already. If you don't have this definition, you're going to have a hard time convincing anyone you're serious about it, and you probably won't ever get beyond the initial "hey, I could make a mod" thought.

2) Make your requests specific: don't just say "I need interior/exterior builders, scripters, modelers." Ask for specific things like "I need a sword model, and a script that does x." You've got a lot better chance of getting the help you want, and you're not wasting people's time by making them guess what you need.

3) Make sure YOU are doing something, and I don't mean providing an idea: Whose project is going to get more interest, someone who posts a progress list, screenshots, and shows clear evidence of work on it, or someone who just writes a single line idea and expects everyone else to do all the real work. This is especially important if you're asking for major work.

4) Use correct English: I know it's not everyone's main language, and everyone makes mistakes, but there's just no excuse besides laziness for stuff like "u" and 1337ish. If you don't take your project seriously enough to do this, why should anyone else?

5) Nobody owes you anything: We don't have endless free time just praying someone gives us an idea to work on. And unless you're paying us, nothing requires us to help you. So don't complain if your request doesn't get enough interest. Maybe you've got a problem with 1-4 above, maybe your idea isn't that interesting to people, or maybe the help you need doesn't have enough time to work on your project.


These next few are more on project leadership in general. After seeing the failure of Project Phoenix, I have some idea how this stuff works:

6) Don't get too ambitious. It's very easy to start listing all the cool features you want to have and congratulating yourselves on what an amazing mod you're about to make. But be realistic, these things are a lot more complicated than you think. Most of these ambitious mods fail before they really get anywhere, and for good reason. Think very carefully about what you realistically can do, and cut down your ambitions. It's better to produce a smaller mod than to fail at making a bigger one.

7) Use the talents you have. This ties into not getting too ambitious... take a look at the people you have and their talents, and give yourself a sanity check. Can you actually do all these things you're dreaming of? It's very easy to say "I'll have X new models". But do you have someone with the right software and skills to make them? And make them well? Don't count on the miracle of someone showing up to join your team, odds are we won't.

Yes, I have 3dsmax. Yes, I probably know more about it than most people here. Yes, I am capable of doing everything even the most ambitious TC dreamer could ask for. Million-poly architectural models for normal mapping? Sure. Custom animation sets for that crossbow you want? Easy. Baked textures to fake photo-realistic indoor lighting? In my sleep.

But I am not on your team. I dislike Oblivion, my computer can barely run it, and I probably won't do any modding for it until/if the community manages to fix its many flaws. Don't expect me to take pity on you and fill all your modeling needs, either get the software and learn to do it yourself, or do without.

8) Modding is HARD. Like I've said, it's very easy to start a self-congratulatory list of what a cool mod you're going to make. But odds are, you have no idea how difficult a project you just started. Do you know why there were so few TCs for Morrowind? Because they are insanely hard to finish. Take whatever amount of work you think it'll take, multiply that by a hundred or so, then double it, and maybe you'll come close to the real number.

Small-scale mods are bad enough, but doing a TC or other large mod is an entirely different nightmare. Not only will you need those expert modelers/texturers/writers/scripters/etc, but you'll need several of each (at least if you want to be done before ES7 is out). And even worse, you'll need administrators. Leading a team is much harder than it looks... any moron can throw out some vague ideas, but actually managing a large-scale project is far more difficult. Even if the leader doesn't produce one model/script/paragraph of writing himself, he'll probably be investing more time and energy than anyone else on the team. Not surprisingly, you're more likely to either get a poor leader or one who loses interest eventually.

9) Bad things happen. If you start on one of these large-scale projects, bad things will inevitably happen. Your leader will find himself with a sudden increase in real-life committments (me and Project Phoenix). Your storyline author will have to leave for personal reasons (Phoenix again). Your concept artist will forget to pay his internet bills and be offline for a month and screw up all your deadlines. The only copy of your quest-writers work will be lost in a hard drive crash. You'll find after a month of work that two critical scripts (written by different people) have conflicts with each other and need to be redone. Etc... the list goes on and on. Real life will intrude on your happy dreams of modding. Are you really prepared to deal with these problems and keep working, or will the project just fall apart?

Yes! 1,000 times Yes... Sticky this, and make it required reading before posting anything, please. I don't know how many topics in the last month have fallen to atleast one of the above situations.

This should be pinned, or at least have a link to it posted in every unreasonable request thread...
I don't join TC's, not because the theme doesn't interest me, but because, like Peregrine said, they are hard, and most of them fail. I don't want to work on a project for months, only to see it close because of all the bad things that could (and will) happen. I'm not saying that project Serpent will fail, I'm just not going to get excited by TC's, because the chance of failure is big, and I don't want to be disappointed.

I hope I'm not discouraging anyone. I DO want you to make the TC, and you have my support! In ways like "You can do it!" of course.

And hurray for common sense!

Agreed. Pin this. I have done my best to use these principles in producing my castle, which is a medium scale project and a lot of work for one person. Luckily I have GBHis for my scripting and Cotel is doing retexturing. And it's the only thing I'm working on.

In contrast, have you seen 'Project Spartan'. Atrodan (of unknown experience) and The Vulture (of no modding experience or talent whatsoever) have started what is essentially a total conversion. It was doomed before it started...

Maybe I'll send them a link to this.

WarKirby

Pinning this would be the politest thing to do, for the sake of the future mental health of 14 year olds.

Pinned, and endorsed.


It's easy to start a mod... but seeing a project through from start to finish is hard, time-consuming work.

Most pinned topics will be taken down when I add the pinning functionality to the tutorial section on the site. Until then it can remain up.

Pretty wise and very sensible what you wrote, well done. I think people who are about to start a mod (or even request for mods) should at least have those basic points in mind...Of course there should never be a limit to requests and ideas for new mods since, after all you can either take it or leave it.

Peregrine offered his services to project Spartan as an artist, and he's charging them. Negotiations are probably private though. Seems a little wierd to go and do that after such a rant. Or maybe he's trying to teach them a lesson by making them waste money on a mod they'll never finish.

What are your motives, Peregrine?

WarKirby

There's no great conspiracy at work... the two are entirely separate. This post was made to hopefully beat some sense into the various modders and maybe cut the failure rates a bit. My "application" to Project Spartan was done mostly as a comment on point #7, to highlight how hard it will be for them to find an actual artist to deliver all their promises. It wasn't a serious offer, especially considering their apparent lack of age and therefore extra money to pay me with.

Of course there's also the very simple motive of "get money". If I happened to guess wrong, and they actually want to give me enough money, I'll do all the art they could ever want.


They're pretty much what reminded me that we needed this post. The signs of excessive ambition had all been there, but that disaster of a thread made it all clear.

Nice suggestion
Really, 80% of this months new topic has been some lame want-to-learn-modding-but-doesn't-bother-reading-the-wiki-every-once-in-a-while-ish guy wanting help.

Oh-- about the 14 year olds... Does it apply to 13 year olds as well?

I've thought about what would be a neat mod, or "that's an annoying feature". I didn't even know people were out there that actually would help you make a mod. I thought everyone actually did learn pretty much what they needed themselves, or borrowed art that someone had already made.

Very informative post, thank you.

*goes to write a quest idea*

But what if we don't get the Wiki for a program? We still suck horribly (or maybe just me?). Oh, well, I guess I can live without my idea.

I don't speak to Nazis

You can either
a) Get better at english. (MUDs are a good way to go. Click here. - I learned most of my english at LOFE. Click *here* to give it a try.)

b) Trial-And-Error learning is always (though time-consuming) a good way to learn...

Expanding on this: for long posts, use a spell checker, and if it's important enough (statements of intent, team recruitment, etc.) and you don't feel confident of your own ability, find someone with a good comprehension of grammar.

Yes, this is surely most common sence. But I think there a thing that you lacks in this thread: encuraging the new modders. What this thread basicly say is that, if your new to modding, you bether not even try. I think the best way to learn, is to break your nose on the gound. And you prove that point by saying your self that you've learned what you say in this thread by failling in your mod project.

I think you wrote this because many new modders ask for help, and, when they have some, they dont know what to do with it. Wich brigns the people who helped them to loose there time.

What you should ask to the new modders, instead of telling them to not even think about modding, to say that they are new to modding when they ask for help. From that point, it is your choise to help him or not, knowing he wont be to good at the begining.

There are some realy, realy good advices in this thread, but you should make it a litle more friendly and encuraging. More like a guide then a warning.

And sorry for my bad english

You're missing the point entirely. In fact, I'm saying the exact opposite. New modders should try, they should get the CS and other tools, study the countless tutorials available, and learn how to do it. The only thing they shouldn't aim for right away is a large-scale mod. Start small, and work your way up.

As for my own failure, that was mostly due to real-world issues from several people involved. It's only really relevant to that last part about "be prepared for real life to screw you". The other points are just common sense or things I've observed, not things I've done myself.



The problem isn't new modders asking for help. It's that far too often "help" really means "I'll think of cool ideas, while you do all the real work for me." If it was all threads asking for how-to advice that isn't covered by the tutorials, it would be different. But instead of "which pivot point alignment in 3dsmax should I use for a spear?", it's always "plz make this model".



The title is Bird From Hell, not Bird From Heaven. And a warning is exactly what those rules are, anyone ignoring them is doomed to failure.

I am more than willing to help... if anyone wants it.
I get straight A's in grammer... only thing, lol

Hope this doesn't count as topic necromancy; I was adding something useful

As i'd just started modding i was happy to find this tread. Although already thinking that way it wass nice to see someone actually confirming what to be carefull about. This was VERY usefull for my, and no i did'nt feelt like my project was impossible just because, i was told not too get ambisius. Actually i was more eager than ever and felt more confident in doing it right after reading this, so thx very much. (Sry for the bad languish)

Someone seems to have de-pinned this. Please put it back, hopeful modders aren't going to find it buried on the 10th page.

It's back, good! We still linked to it every now and then but preventing the whole post from being made in the first place is much better, no?

My kind of a total conversion is just changing nearly every single piece of game material, adding stuff, and customizing things to my heart's content.
And I can do this by picking and choosing mods I like! Yay for MMM, Deadly Reflex, that guy who makes Ruined Tail's Tale et cetera, people who make texture packs I vainly try to run and crash my pathetic computer, people who release easy-to-make things that I can reproduce without another .ESP file, just... Pat everyone on the back.

That's how you do a total conversion, if you're a lazy man like me.

Anywho, this is a really useful resource for reminding people why not to get overconfident (For me, why never to release anything I make because it all sucks and doesn't do what I wanted).
Final note: Please, make some meshes and textures and we'll get back to you on fixing whatever you hate about Oblivion, how's that sound? Heck, you might be able to get weapon-hitchances and such by creating chance of doing 0% of the damage to an enemy depending on your skill with the blade. With OBSE or something. I mean, I couldn't, but we've got decapitations for christ's sake, you'd think we could make non-damaging strikes, right? Again, this wouldn't be me doing this, my CS (Construction set, not counter-strike) skills are insufficient, but you never know.
Now, me, I'd not download that 'cause I like always hitting things I swing at, but I did up the damage for the advanced strikes you get as you progress in level, and the chances for disarming and knockback to make leveling in weapons more efficient (that's the limit of what I can do, although I vaguely know how to do a bit more).

What else, now that I'm on a roll...? I have am to enjoy to the correctness of usings with the grammarages too also. The status of existancing rightness within regardance to an English's talks also of write is can be to very goodly.
Wow, that was painful to write.
Here's an important tip for modders (from experience, here): Make sure your mod isn't dependent on other mods to function properly without telling people; it makes funny things happen. Like invisible bodies and the "/I HAVE NO GREETING greeting". Or something.
Also, anyone who doesn't make their awesome mod's most important patch also the one to require Shivering Isles is my new best friend. Because I took one look at SI and thought, "Yeah, I'm never going to be able to run this... Hope someone grabs those kick animations for hand-to-hand for everyone else, though "

Oh yeah, kick in oblivion! Replace the backwards strike with that kick animation and up the knockback chance to 100%. There; kick in Oblivion. Now if only I knew how to replace animations correctly...

Hmm, to not be guilty of asking everyone else to do the work here, if I've actually got a point to any of those ideas, don't credit me if you create them. Seriously, bad idea. I even lost my copy of Oblivion recently so there's no way I could test any of them. Or Deadly Reflex 3.0, for that matter, which kinda sucks.

Final words: If you think this post was horribly off-topic and pointless, you're right. But at least it's all in one post, instead of spread around the rest of the forums, right?
Please?

EDIT: Woah, long post.

Whenever I look for new mods, I end up crying myself to sleep because of all of the below-average, duplicate, cheap, and useless mods taking up too much space. Then I weep through breakfast thinkng about all of those gigantic mods that sank because of too much ambition and too little talent.

Good advice, Peregrine. Unless you have a lot of money and/or talent, it could sound a bit pessimistic. Mabye it is, but if you plan for the worst, all of your suprises are nice ones.

So get your hopes down and work your fingers raw. Expect nothing from anyone else, give into despair, discredit your own talents, and you'll come out fine.

Your advice should extend beyond those with ambitions, everyone who has had even the smallest thought of modding should have that first post tatooed to the backs of their hands so they won't forget it.

Modding noobs: it’s hard stuff, learn it and you can make stuff like “Ruined Tail” or the OOO. It’s a long road, the difficulties have been explained, but it’s worth it.

im wondering what the scripting is for locks

like is it if lock =< 50 blahblahblah will it work?

im making a mod that has a open spell that makes the door open on its own too, but this will make all locks including needs key ones to open.

also for a diffrent mod whats the command for when a item if picked up or is in inventory?

This is not a general query help thread for technical questions. Please feel free to start your own thread and request help. It is more likely you will get an answer that way.

Thanks.

Well it's just my opinion but....

I don't really agree with this list pined here....

It's just a matter of hard work & imagination to finish what you had in mind to create.

I do agree though with that part where the authour says about the "mod-team"......
That's why I prefer to work alone .... LoL
... even if that means that I'm going to need the double time to finish a project.

It's all true. You were just sensible enough to follow those rules that apply to your mod without thinking about it- most of them are just common sense really. You'd be amazed how stupid some people can be though.

true.... I usually set limits too.
But.... you can always learn something new in the mid time...
For example I've learned a lot of new things while I was creating my GTA ep 1....
as a resault , I work much faster now even with more complex things like worldbuilding.
So.... In my opinion...
it's just a matter of devotion and hard work....

Devotion and hard work is vey important, of course, but it won't get you anywhere if you don't follow those rules. I could spend all my spare time working on a mod I'm absolutely devoted to, but if it's too big for me, I'm not going to get it done.

True number 2..... But
I would say then that it's a list of "suggestions" and not "rules"....

( I believe that with CS and everything inclouded and a good modeler I would be able to create a world as large as shivering Isles inclouding questlines in less than a year and that's definatelly against these rules.... )

You may have the skills, and you may want to, but lets be honest: do you really think you'd manage it? No. Why? Because you'd lose interest long before you finish it, and chances are you don't have all the skills you'd need anyway. Unless you can do interiors, exteriors, scripting, AI, modeling, retexturing, etc, etc... you might be great at some of them, and you might have a basic knowledge of the rest, but you'd need to be good at them to actually be able to do it.

I don't believe it is a matter of skills... But only a matter of knowledge....
Let's check the CS "region fuction" for example.... It has almost everything you need to build a basic world as large as tamriel in a week...... The hard work comes with the interiors.... but if you know exacly where to find your items then.... it's only a matter of time...

But the region generator comes with it's own set of problems which you wouldn't know about unless you were experienced at using it, such as floating objects- you frequently have to position most of the objects by hand, but someone who didn't really know what they were doing wouldn't know that.

That's true too...

After a few tests though I've discovered that if the heightmap is correct and the land is smooth and wellbalanced the region generator error amount can be reduced to 8% [+/-2].... So... if you split the land in 100 cells per region at a time then you can easilly find those few errors and fix them...

I think we are complete out off the current topic though lol....

Well I've had Oblivion for about.......4 days on the pc na dI'm already hooked on mods, I was thinking of starting a simple project, i.e. putting a flame effect on a weapon, but the problem is I have no experience at all with modding.

I understand that I would need Blender and Nifskope, as well as the CS. Is there anything else I need?

And another thing, I can't find any tutorials on modding for beginners.....it's such a pain lol.

Anyways all I wanted to say was would anyone know where I could get hold of the textures/ meshes for designing my own sword and applying the flame effect.

Thanks.

http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index...tion_Set_Primer

thats a good tutorial, it covers interiors, exteriors, and some quest stuff, im a beginner and since i have to wait a week or two before i can even install oblivion (my RAM is messed up) im just familiarizing myself with different modding techniques

this thread is very helpful because now im not going to waste my time trying to make impossible mods when i have almost no experience whatsoever, thank you peregrine

This is ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT ADVICE from Peregrine and I cannot understand why anyone could not understand it .. it is stated so plainly and simply and yet with so much insight. It should indeed be a pinned thread.

I am so moved by it that I have a rather odd request for you, Peregrine. May I possibly paraphrase it a bit where appropriate and make it into a book scroll for my present house mod I am building for a house mod contest at TESFU forum?

I have included many of my elder vaults and some TES fan union friends in the mod and I would like to add this sage advice to my library .. if you are willing. I would refer to you as an Imperial soldier giving campaign advice (or really any character type you wish .. telvanni wizard, hlaalu merchant, etc.?)

I mention paraphrase to make it sound more pertinent to being read in a Morrowind scroll (on Solstheim Isle). Maybe change the word "proper English" to 'proper language' .. change word "computer" to 'system' ... change word "mod" to ' project or campaign'.

What say you, Bird from Hell? If you don't like the idea, cool enough. But I really like your advice and believe it is even more univerally sound than mere modding. Can apply to alot of projects.

Sorry to break it to you, Peregrine got banned a little while ago.

OMG .. that is most surprising to hear. I've always thought of him as a regular at TES Source and TES Nexus. Well, I will have to try to find his email addy then. Or possibly the official forums. Thanks for the info.

Great point here, and one that I've taken to heart, definitely. I rarely use the forums (like 3 or 4 posts, lol?) but I do a lot of personal CS work to enhance my game.

Recently, I've decided to begin a large project, just to see how I can do if nothing else, that adds a massive cave system under Cyrodiil. Looking at this, hmm, well, my problem are...

1. I suck at quest flagging. Really. You don't get how bad I am at it. I'm not kidding.
2. My visions are large, but my abilities...not so much. I need a team, which I hope to recruit in the coming days.
3. I get bored really easily, especially in tedious parts of the CS. Addressed this, though, by immersing myself in this. (Kind of like LSD, but using the powers of mild self-hypnotism and soliloquy rather than drugs...drugs are bad.)
4. I could use a little clarification on parts of the CS that have always just sort of eluded me.


Still, I've got some real life friends who are helping, and through use of the CS wiki, I hope to overcome the other things. I've planned most of the mod out, just need to build it, and unless someone offers me model and texture services, I'll likely make this out of entirely vanilla content. I'll take it as it comes, and hope for the best. If it falls through? Well, I'll know better next time, eh?

I totally agree with Peregrine's first post, and most pleased to hear mod's are hard work and it's not just me...LOL

But from a newcomers point of view this thread just gives off the impression modders are not willing to help because you have been burned by overambitious newbies, or tired of helping new modders because the Wiki has all the answers. Well I hope when I become a modder I don't share such cynicisms, I have spent months learning from the Wiki and many other tutorials so I can mod and contribute to the community. But sometimes the answers are not as obvious to others, especially when just starting out, if you cant ask an experienced modder for help then who do we ask ?

I mean no offense and apologies in advance if I have, this is not a rant or a trolling attempt just an observation....

Note that Peregrine has been banned from this site and is therefor unable to reply, and probably long gone.

Good thread though, and the number of 'recruiting 1000 people for my kewl mod idea but I have no idea how to use the CS' threads have decreased.

Hey everyone.

I am sorta new so I hope I am not jumping in to late here with the resurrection of a dead thread (its been a week?)

I have no technical knowledge but wish to learn modding. I may have asked some premature questions but have been nicely told where to start looking for tutorials and such. I do see that a great many modders are getting a bit angry with life. People will (unfortunately) always take advantage of a kind soul. However as a new person it is hard to know what/who/where to ask even when you read forums and tutorials. I dont understand to what most people refer most of the time (it is like I am trying to learn a new language or something!) And if you do get someone to answer a question its kinda like you want to jump on them and vamp drain them for knowledge before it is too late. Being new to forums in general I have to admit that it is also difficult to judge (since I cant see you) exactly where the line may be sometimes.

I think it may be helpful for a experienced modder to maybe have a form of basic info he would wish a person to review prior to asking questions and also with basic information that they may wish to know from us noobs. Maybe go from there? I dont know I am just throwing it out there. This entire thing is MAJOR INTIMIDATING and it is hard to ask questions and feel like a freaking moron! Remember--unless you are Wile E. Coyote Super Genius then you were like us once and didn't know anything! Be patient and use small sentences and non-scrabble winning words!

Hi, Lisnpuppy.

I am also new to mods, but I am good at figuring out how to make software tools do what I want. I downloaded CS about 3 weeks ago, spent a week going back and forth to the CS Wiki following the Beginner's Guide and, now, I have my “Divine Elegance Showroom” mod more than halfway thru. Planning to have an Alpha version in one week or two.

So … if you have a specific problem with CS, I will be glad to help and try to figure out a solution. If I can help you, I will do it, if I can´t, I will tell you.

But my little experience is limited to the CS. I know nothing about meshes, textures and animations (yet).

Besides, been a newbie and all, I’d better follow the rules and pay attention to Jojo’s 5th Commandment

basicly if youre new to the subject start out trying somin easy...

your way (do it according to your mod idea - order can differ depending on what you wanna do but thats the by me recommended way if you wanna get a full blooded tes modder):

change the price of an item
duplicate said item and place it ingame
create a place in the game where you find it
add a script to the item (very powerful if you master it)
make a quest leading there
add voices
change the items texture
change its model (also incredibly powerful once mastered)
make an animation for it

for most of these there are tutorials and you should be able to do quite anything in oblivion once youve done that

for specific question ask in the appropriate forum and always be polite... say thx! say thx! say thx! say thx! say thx! (yes its bloody important indeed ) and if someone really helps you give him kudos... i cant imagine any modder who wouldnt answer a question if its put nice and covers a topic which is not easy to understand in the first place... but remember to try to find a solution yourself first... most people worked their asses of to get where they are now... many even had to invent the wheel for specific things

also its necessary for whatever you do with computers that you learn to understand the basic principles behind the system... the language used, the buttons to click and where to look for specific files... mac os can be quite different from windows for that matter

asking specific modders is unpolite imo if you dont know em for some time and they didnt help you yet, well maybe if youve became an advanced modder yourself and need help for somin specific which only this modder knows... who knows maybe they dont even visit this page at all anymore...

Thanks again to all the mod creators big or small. They have made my game so much better, the wife tells me I spend too much time here.
Just for some background on me 21 years Navy, IBM software house using ADA (no I'm not C++ kind of guy). One thing that most newbee's like me needs is a good game terms reference manual. (I know comming from ex-military the abb can be quite confusing).
I just got Blender and started to read the instructions and see how much work is required to do a simple mod, I was impressed. This is comming from a guy that worked on a software design with a team for 3 years for what I would consider a simple program (interfermeter direction finder).
So to all the people out there that wants to start, listen to the experts and pay attention to their advice and have fun it's a game not a life.


Just a quick update I've found a reference for the CS that covers many of the questions that I have. Recommend reading for all new mod creators.

any wwe fan here? i have a huge idea but i just can't put it on the pc. It s needed a modder with animation programs and a bit of experience using it...
shadow hide you

I couldn't agree more. Even though I'm a noob and can't make decent mods, if I go on to TESNesxus and see a mod and am usure wether or not to get it, if you can't spell or just have general crap grammar (especially if it is in some back story for the mod) odds are I won't download it.