An interesting article published in today's Australian newpaper "The Age", in its 'Livewire' section.

Flesh for fantasy
August 10, 2006
LiveWire

It's the fastest-growing entertainment form, but gaming is still immature when it comes to sex. Why the titillation, asks Jason Hill?

BY MOST criteria, the interactive games industry has grown up. As the fastest-growing segment of the entertainment business, games now rake in more than $40 billion a year globally.

In Australia, more than 70 per cent of gamers are adult and more than a third are female. But despite its large and diverse audience, the games industry still suffers from an immature attitude to sex.

Countless controversial games have stretched the boundaries of realistic depictions of violence, yet sex still remains taboo for most publishers.

But it's a paradox that might be about to change.

The first Sex in Video Games Conference was recently held in San Francisco to explore how traditional game publishers and the adult entertainment industry can incorporate sex.

Organiser Brenda Brathwaite said opposition to sexual content in games was inevitable, with critics typically using the argument of protecting children "as if all gamers are kids and all media should be reduced to a form that kids can consume".

She challenged the audience to imagine a world of books, art, music and film with no sexual references, adding: "If Brokeback (Mountain) was a game that just had two guys on a bench talking" someone would still try to ban it.

No game publisher is beyond using sex appeal to sell its products, and buxom heroines have been common since Lara Croft first squeezed into a cleavage-enhancing tank top in 1996.

But shameless flesh-flashing, as in the abominable BMX XXX, which featured topless bicycle riders and strippers, is not going to earn the industry respect. Nor is the tacky voyeurism of games such as Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball, Rumble Roses or Playboy: The Mansion - titles all designed to titillate, with game and story elements almost secondary to the objectification of female characters.

"The primary target market for many games is teenage and young adult males," says Brett Hutchins, lecturer in new media at Monash University. "Their experience of sex and relationships is often limited, therefore the depiction of sex is often juvenile and puerile."

But Jason Della Rocca, executive director of the International Game Developers Association, says games are not unique in their adolescent treatment of sex.

"Pretty much every form of human expression handles sex in an immature and exploitative manner," he says. "Games are not the only art entertainment form that needs to grow up."

Some observers believe the game industry has displayed an immature attitude to sex simply because most developers are young men.

"The game development industry has been dominated by young boys making games for young boys," says David Giles, who teaches aspiring developers at the Academy of Interactive Entertainment. "This is gradually beginning to change as studios mature and realise there is potentially a far wider market than just adolescent boys."

But local games designer Mark Angeli rejects this notion, arguing that young men are not in charge of green-lighting multi-million-dollar projects.

"The industry is so young, uncertain and formless that it generally makes the easy call," Mr Angeli says. "The choice between the next Halo or the next Sims is no choice at all. A Halo rip-off is understandable, marketable and easy to make exciting trailers for.

"Truly mature, thoughtprovoking content always comes from experimental creatives, but the game industry is currently run by committees of publishing VPs and Walmart purchasing managers."

Mr Angeli believes it is crucial that the game industry tackles more mature content.

"It's like TV only showing Macgyver, Vegas and The A-Team. No Six Feet Under, no Sopranos, no Deadwood," he says.

Mr Giles believes "every form of media should be allowed to explore every aspect of life".

"This is what allows theatre, film and TV to produce the occasional masterpiece," he says. "Games should have the same opportunity."

The game industry's output has certainly failed to keep up with the growing maturity of its audience. In Australia the average game player is 24; in the US the age is now 29.

Just as significant, 38 per cent of Australians who have played a computer or video game in the past year are female.

But these demographics are not evident when you walk into an average games store, with only 30 per cent of games classified by the Office of Film and Literature Classification (OFLC) as M or MA15+.

But Mr Giles is confident more intelligent and mature content will be produced.

"The demands from the audience will ensure developers and publishers begin to treat game content in a more mature fashion," he says. "More writers and designers have an appreciation of both good gameplay and a good story."

Monash University's Mr Hutchins agrees. "If a move towards targeting a wider range of adult male and female gamers was approached systematically and incrementally, depiction of sex and, more importantly, relationships would also evolve," he says.

The key to tackling sexual content in a more mature fashion is to present it in context rather than as mere titillation, according to Dr Mark Finn, lecturer in media at Swinburne University of Technology.

"A lot of game genres are becoming more narrative-based," he says. "As the stories become more intricate, sexual content will naturally become part of it, in the same way that the treatment of sexual content developed in film and television."

Game designer Sheri Graner Ray, author of Gender Inclusive Game Design: Expanding the Market, believes offering characters with emotional depth will help the game industry widen its audience and appeal to more women.

Until now, sexual content in games has usually been included for shock value, according to Amy Powell, a games researcher and lecturer at Swinburne.

She believes more women in development will help to turn the tide.

"By including appropriate sexual content within the broader context of the game's story and gameplay experience, it is likely this material will be included in games only where relevant," she says.

At the Sex in Video Games Conference, veteran developer Ms Brathwaite offered a history of games with sexual content, listing such examples as:

·"Poke-the-Doll" games such as 1987's MacPlaymate and the new Virtually Jenna.

· Dating or "Hentai" games, extremely popular in Japan, where the objective is to win the affection of, and in some cases have virtual sex with, a series of female or male characters.

· Mainstream games with mature themes and partial nudity such as The Sims, Singles, Leisure Suit Larry and God of War.

· Indie adult games created by small developers, often distributed online.

· User-created content with fans creating game modifications to add sexual elements, such as nude characters for The Sims 2 and Oblivion.

At any rate the evidence suggests that if traditional game developers do not embrace adult themes, gamers will turn to online worlds to create it themselves.

In virtual worlds such as Everquest, World of Warcraft and Second Life, players make friends, flirt, date, and even prostitute their characters - all without any help from game developers.

Despite critics who believe sex has no place in gaming, the emergence of sexuality in almost all online worlds, as well as the modification of popular games, shows there is strong demand for adult content.

And to cater to this, online games with specifically erotic themes are on their way, such as RedLight Center and Naughty America, a dating game complete with virtual sex.

Game designer Mr Angeli believes massive online games will be the most fertile ground for "the first truly mature content" because they don't require traditional publishers.

"It will be revelatory," he says. "First-person shooters that deal with the real consequences of violence, real-time strategy that has real-world political issues, Sims-style games that explore the intricacies of all possible sexual relationships. Sign me up."

Censors have played a big role in the game industry's sexual conservatism with guidelines stricter than those placed on film.

When the current Australian classification system was devised in 1994, there was little research into the effect of games on players, so censorship ministers directed the OFLC to uphold higher standards for games than for films.

There is still no R18+ rating for games in Australia and the OFLC is less tolerant of sexual content than violence.

The OFLC refused classification for Singles: Flirt Up Your Life, which displayed sexual activity "related to an incentive or reward". The Carry On sexual humour of Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude was also banned.

In contrast, most games with realistic violence routinely receive MA15+ ratings. Last year a popular game that lets players whack innocent characters with a baseball bat and perform drive-by shootings - Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas - was only removed from shop shelves because it had a sex scene.

San Andreas was temporarily banned because contentious hidden material had not been brought to the censor's attention when the game received its MA15+ rating. The controversial "Hot Coffee" scenes featured the player's (clothed) character having sex with his naked girlfriend and were not meant to be viewed by players, but canny hackers found the content inadvertently left on retail discs and provided eager gamers with the tools to unlock it.

San Andreas was subsequently pulled from the shelves and the content removed.

It was not the first time the Grand Theft Auto games had been censored for Australian audiences. Grand Theft Auto III was initially refused classification because players could have (unseen) sex with a prostitute, then mug them to steal their money back.

Most critics believe Hot Coffee would have no chance of receiving the all-clear from the OFLC, despite being tamer than some content on late-night TV.

Monash University's Mr Hutchins believes this attitude is tied to Australia's wider political culture.

In this environment, there's much more likelihood of a moral panic over out-of-wedlock sex, abortion and homosexual marriage than over violence, he says.

Censors are in the difficult position of balancing protection of minors and freedom for adults, particularly with Australia's lack of an R classification, according to Swinburne University's Dr Finn.

"The banning of Grand Theft Auto III seems to indicate that sexual content is more likely to get a game banned than violence," he says.

Dr Finn believes user-created content also creates a unique problem for censors.

"The OFLC and other bodies have to classify content on the basis of what has been produced, rather than what might be produced once the public gets a hold of it," he says.

"It is possible that classification bodies will find themselves constantly on the back foot as users continue to push the boundaries of acceptable content."

The creators of online worlds are also wrestling with issues of sexual harassment and whether it is necessary or possible to police these huge virtual societies.

Dr Finn believes it is only a matter of time before a game's host faces a sexual harassment lawsuit, but others say giving players the power to protect themselves is a more realistic alternative to policing.

But censors are not the only roadblock to getting mature content into the hands of adult players: publishers and retailers have to be convinced there is money to be made.

Unlike Australia, games in the US can receive an Adults-Only rating, but publishers are still wary of sexual content because big retailers such as Walmart in the US refuse to stock games rated as Adult Only.

Only 20 games in the past decade have received an AO rating in the US.

"I can walk into a developer tomorrow with a game that's enthralling to play, non-exploitative and makes people really think about personal relationships but every developer would have to say no, even if they loved it, because their publishers are convinced there is no market for it," local game designer Mr Angeli says.

"And they're right, until that market is created by a content provider willing to dip their toe."

***********************

ScreenPlay Blog: Game makers need to grow up
Photos: Game Girls

The juvenile games industry desperately wants to grow up, but it needs to start tackling mature subjects if it wants interactive entertainment to be taken seriously as an important cultural and artistic medium.


As today's Livewire cover story examines, few games have tackled sex in a mature fashion. No publisher is beyond using sex to sell their products, but shameless flesh-flashing is not going to earn the industry more respect or widen its audience.


The aversion to sex seems strange considering countless controversial titles have stretched boundaries in terms of realistic depictions of violence, and the fact that most game players are now adults.


It's not just the fault of a predominately young male development community who has tended to only produce games for themselves. Increasingly conservative publishing bosses, censors and retailers have also played a major role in ensuring sex has remained taboo.

Gaming also desperately needs greater cultural acceptance in order to tackle more mature subject matter. Games are often dismissed as vacuous toys for adolescents with no artistic merit, which causes problems when developers try to tackle serious topics.

Screen Play hopes some brave developers can start exploring the possibilities of this most exciting and unique new medium.

Considering the millions of adults currently flocking to online worlds and creating mature content of their own, any pioneering developers of adult games are likely to attract many eager new players.

WHO GIVES A $H1T? if you don't like the game, or it doesn't appeal to you, don't buy it. Don't try to push your oppinion upon others. Stupid people... Oh, and i wasn't talking about you Mahko, the article writer.

What!?! Did you even read any of that.



I do, for one. And if you don't care, you shouldn't be posting here. Also, that sort of language is uncalled for.



The whole point is that we can't buy these sorts of games. Conservative publishers and censors ensure few, if any get made



Nobody's pushing anything. This is a debate forum and makhno has simply quoted an article to illustrate a point. One which I agree with entirely.

WarKirby

Thanks WarKirby, I also thought it was a very relevant article making some very good points.
And I'm sure m3lisk didn't actually read it.

Cheers!

Okay, the one thing in that article that annoyed me was the "since games are made for boys, then sex is not wanted in them" comments.

HELLO? Ever heard of PUBERTY? Idiots.

Besides that, I honestly wonder if there will be a future filled with dark, red-lit corners in gamestores that have creepy looking men in long coats in them, looking at the shelves that are filled with porno games.

Rofl, sorry, now i read it. I just skimmed over it before and saw game, sex, shouldn't buy. I should read entire posts before posting my self. All previous statements withdrawn. Sorry for the language.

I totally 100% agree with you. Why is nudity and sex in games virtually to avoid? Oh right because it doesnt sells all too good and publishers are narrow minded about it. Hell, as a young man, If I see a game with hot girls on the cover, and another one (lets say Rumble Rosses and umm Soul Calibur?) I would definetly buy the most sexually appealing one. Game publishers need to open theyr eyes up, and lisen to the actual people that play their games (teens, adults) and care a little less about parents comments, who mostly have no idea of their teen child sex life.

I don't know too much about Australia's gaming regulations and/or sales (except from what I inferred from the article), but games that take sex seriously aren't doomed to fail. Take a look at Fable, it's a great game and many people apraise it and one of it's quirks is having sex with your wife. Sure, it may not be "mature" enough, but quite frankly it's a start. God of War is also a great example, it's all about Greek mythology, bare breasts and all. With that being said, I shall note that A LOT of copies of God of War have been sold in the US. Of course, the sales are not specifically related to the sexual content seeing as it's focus point is on action/platforming, but it shows that sexual content does not hinder sales.

I believe that even if most game developers want nothing to do with the stuff, some will take baby steps towards the topic until one game game is released that revolutionizes things (like Mortal Kombat is to violence).

makhno's post deleted. Spam. Please remember the rules on one liners. Thanks.

Thanks for taking care of it. This post was an accident and since we can't delete our posts, there wasn't much I could do about it. I am well aware of posting etiquette.
Cheers.

I must say, if I want real world sex situations I DON'T want it to be on a video screne with little colored pixels - I want it in the flesh, here and now.

More realism in sexual content in video games? Who cares? It is NOT going to make you a better lover because you can smooth talk the girls on the x-box. Realism exists and it is called LIFE - it you need to get it from your video games, then you will NEVER get it. I play video games to unwind, to escape reality. If I want some b*itch nagging at me, I'll go upstairs where reality is

Let the games stay tit-ilating, and lame - the real world sets in soon enough for me.

Fair enough, that's your opinion, but I strongly disagree.
Think of video gaming more the way you may think of cinema.
If I don't mind a few simple-minded action movies every now and then, I know I certainly do enjoy deeper movies where the characters are more realistic, studied, with more depth.
I wouldn't want all movies to be made with impatient teenage boys in mind.

Sure, it'll sell, but continuing the example of cinema, all that focus on flesh and flash will likely lead to a loss of quality overall just because people will buy it just to %&$! off. Look at how much quality recent games are already lacking just for the sake of graphics or sound. When they can just sell sex wholesale, like graphics currently are, they won't have to bother to work on anything else to make the sales. Look at the porno industry, most of the crap out there is poorly done softcore, or even more poorly done hardcore, without any sort of story line. Look at a couple of the games out there that do have strong sexual content, sure, there are nice bouncy pixels, but there is little quality in the product. The fact that there are these lines drawn kinda forces companies to do other stuff besides sticking a half naked woman on the cover (Everquest 1 box anyone?). If these regulations were removed, we'd probably see a sudden surge in nothing but low quality %&$!ing material for a few years, that is until people get bored with it, and companies would have to turn to another vice to push their product.

Granted, if some groups start protesting it, it will last a bit longer as a selling point, but they too would eventually give up, or see that all they're doing is promoting the product (doubtful). Look at it in relation to volence. When violent games get people upset... their sales go up. Every time some kid starts shooting up their school, there's that same exact video clip from Doom 1 playing on the news, and you get nostolgic. It's no wonder video game companies get blamed for violent behavior in people, they make so much money every time something happens.

Now take that, and apply it with sexual content... Do we really need some 12 year old unwed mother blaming video games for getting her pregnant? Seriously, who do you think will be buying most of these games? Kids and 35 year old guys who still live in their parent's basement, that's who. And to be frank, both already have their hands full with what's already available. Those who are of age, and are actually going to get any, any time soon, don't play those games (mostly because they want to continue getting some in real life). Nothing screams LOSER louder than some guy with way too many naked women on his walls (Otaku's come close).

I can understand you feeling a bit out of the loop. But trust me, that's a good thing, you're better off being left out. In America there are fewer limitations for games, and so you have more idiots blaming them for every problem in their lives, or every stupid thing they do.

I see your points and I think they make sense, but I don't think the article, or my posts, were about age restrictions and bans.
They were more about the need to develop more mature games as opposed to juvenile non-sense.

Personally, I don't care if there is an age restriction. I can usually see the need for one.

Not to make an issue of it, but have age restrictions EVER meant that children wouldn't get a hold of it. If anything, kids purposly look for stuff with the "Mature" labels on stuff before annoying their parents to get it for them. Game companies already know this, you can see it in their marketing, though none of them would admit to it.

The point that you didn't get is that just because a company starts including hardcore in their games, doesn't mean the game will be any good. If anything, it will lead to two situations; First, either the hardcore sells well enough where they don't have to invest any effort in creating a plot, or even gaming elements, leading to porno that is just sold as a game. Or, the hardcore stuff doesn't sell the game any since the market for it is only little kids, or total losers, and even the more softcore elements in games get scaled back to distance themselves from this dark spot in the market.

This is not to distract the fact that there are already several small companies making sex games. They just aren't well known, and are only talked about in certain circles. Or havn't you heard about games like Virtual Valerie or Virtual Girl. Unfortunately (or fortunately in some cases), most of these games aren't exported outside the country, so getting a hold of them usually requires breaking laws of some sort. There are games out there that go into graphic (sometimes too) detail, they just aren't mainstream (or usually legal). The problem with that little article is that it only talks about these mainstream things. I would imagine that if that author even looked at some of the game content in some Japanese games, they would be looking to keep that stuff out of their country.

Given that the subject matter in those games ranges from gratitutious xex, to every fetish under the sun, to incestous acts, to god knows what. And that those little parental warnings on packages don't do a damn thing, if it isn't the case of the kid harrassing their parents into buying it, it's them performing credit fraud, or finding it on their parents computer. Long story short, it will happen, and some of the stuff out there could screw up mature adults bad enough, just by happening into it, forget kids. Your country is seriously better off.

For the record, I'm not some pervert, I was actually a psych student majoring in human sexuality for a few years (till it started to affect me). I have seen much, and regret most of it. Trust me, people being able to cater to every sexual impulse only leads to more bizzare impulses as the previous ones lose their effect. Sex IS a drug, the more you're exposed to it, the more you want it.

I got that point loud and clear. And I agree.
But once again, it's not what I or the article was saying.

It's not about simply adding sex, any sex in games.
Just because you add sex or sexual references to a game doesn't automatically make it a good game. That's pretty obvious, isn't it? It doesn't automatically make it a bad game either.

ADULT CONTENT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MEAN PORN AND IT DOESN'T AUTOMATICALLY MAKE A GAME BAD.

I agree that porn movies are too often of a very bad quality, with terrible stories if any.

Anyway, sex or sexual intrigues does not necessarily mean porn, or bad porn.

May I kindly suggest you read the article and my posts over again?
I might be wrong but for the second time I just fail to understand how you're actually answering them. You seem to have issues with sexual content no matter what and you seem keen to contradict anything, preferably something that hasn't even been mentionned.
Here, I'll post quotes from the article or from my posts again:

"In Australia, more than 70 per cent of gamers are adult and more than a third are female. But despite its large and diverse audience, the games industry still suffers from an immature attitude to sex."

An immature attitude to sex is also what I find in most porn. But the article ISN'T about porn anyway. You're the one who started talking about porn, Vagrant.

"She challenged the audience to imagine a world of books, art, music and film with no sexual references, adding: "If Brokeback (Mountain) was a game that just had two guys on a bench talking" someone would still try to ban it."

"But shameless flesh-flashing,... is not going to earn the industry respect. Nor is the tacky voyeurism ... designed to titillate, with game and story elements almost secondary to the objectification of female characters."

"The primary target market for many games is teenage and young adult males... Their experience of sex and relationships is often limited, therefore the depiction of sex is often juvenile and puerile."

"Pretty much every form of human expression handles sex in an immature and exploitative manner," he says. "Games are not the only art entertainment form that needs to grow up."

"Some observers believe the game industry has displayed an immature attitude to sex simply because most developers are young men."

"Truly mature, thoughtprovoking content always comes from experimental creatives, but the game industry is currently run by committees of publishing VPs and Walmart purchasing managers."

"every form of media should be allowed to explore every aspect of life".

"This is what allows theatre, film and TV to produce the occasional masterpiece," he says. "Games should have the same opportunity."

"A lot of game genres are becoming more narrative-based," he says. "As the stories become more intricate, sexual content will naturally become part of it, in the same way that the treatment of sexual content developed in film and television."

"Until now, sexual content in games has usually been included for shock value, ...By including appropriate sexual content within the broader context of the game's story and gameplay experience, it is likely this material will be included in games only where relevant"

"Despite critics who believe sex has no place in gaming, the emergence of sexuality in almost all online worlds, as well as the modification of popular games, shows there is strong demand for adult content."

"The juvenile games industry desperately wants to grow up, but it needs to start tackling mature subjects if it wants interactive entertainment to be taken seriously as an important cultural and artistic medium."

"few games have tackled sex in a mature fashion. No publisher is beyond using sex to sell their products, but shameless flesh-flashing is not going to earn the industry more respect or widen its audience"

"Increasingly conservative publishing bosses, censors and retailers have also played a major role in ensuring sex has remained taboo."

"Gaming also desperately needs greater cultural acceptance in order to tackle more mature subject matter. Games are often dismissed as vacuous toys for adolescents with no artistic merit, which causes problems when developers try to tackle serious topics."

"Think of video gaming more the way you may think of cinema.
If I don't mind a few simple-minded action movies every now and then, I know I certainly do enjoy deeper movies where the characters are more realistic, studied, with more depth.
I wouldn't want all movies to be made with impatient teenage boys in mind."

Alright, explain how you envision this game that has explicit sexual content, but does not make it the basis for the game. Ok, now take that game, and run it through how you would expect the current market to react to it. Do more people buy it for the storyline, or do they buy it just because it has sex scenes in it? Most likely, it will be the latter, if not at first, eventually once you have some mother screaming on the news about how bad this game is, and you have groups urging stores to yank it off their shelves. Sure, it sells, but then there is the backlash, the lawsuits, and god knows what. It doesn't matter the context in some people's eyes.

The fundimental problem here isn't about game makers, it is about society. They can't put anything more graphic into those games because it wouldn't be acceptable to the number of people that happen to speak the loudest. Unfortunately, atleast from your point of view, this aspect of society doesn't change very quickly.

I am not anti-sex as you seem to think. I just feel that people's ignorance to all the stuff out there is a good thing. This relates to the topic because as certain standards of sexuality become more acceptable, more people will seek out the less acceptable forms. With those less acceptable forms gaining a larger audience, more groups will try to cater to that audience. Look at the growth of bondage culture in North America over the last 20 years. The more people are exposed to it, the more acceptable it becomes. The more acceptable it becomes, the more push there will be into less acceptable things. Games are only one outlet of media that could be used to expose people. Ok, sure, some things would still (hopefully) remain taboo, but you would still run through alot of stuff which most people just aren't ready for. This is not even considdering that the largest group that would be exposed are children who don't know any different. Some parents can't even handle explaining sex in it's most basic terms, I would imagine it to be even harder for them to explain all the more bizzare practices out there. Yeah, you're just thinking of intercourse in games, there are already several by the way, but do you really think it'll stop there if it's allowed to go that far within the popular culture?

You say you get the whole "quality = suck" concept, but I don't think you do. Ask yourself, why have game makers already diverted most of their resources away from writing, and programming, to graphics and sound? Another way to think about it, you have two games, one using the latest developments in graphics and with full voice acting, or one that uses less sophisticated graphics and has little to no voice acting. Both games have groups of people saying how good both games are, which game would most people more likely pick up? Most people would end up buying the game that looks better, as long as their computer could run it (and occasionally even if they can't). Game companies know this, and put most of their effort into making sure there is plenty of eye-candy for all. Since their game with better graphics sells better than their last game which had more focus on storyline, next time they make a game, they will likely put more effort into the graphics, as it becomes the main selling point for the game. Compare the quality of most modern games, with that of games 10 years ago. Even though I'm sure the artistic intentions are still there, there is a significant decline. Add sexual content into the mix (like violence has been within the last 12 or so), and you'll see the decline increase as companies realize that if they add in more sex scenes, they need less other stuff to sell twice as well. This is why porno doesn't have good writing, and why it is part of the topic. They can sell the product just as well without decent writters. How long do you think it'll take until games get to that point? You can't sell a game on violence, there are too many idiots out there to use it as a scapegoat. You can however sell a game with just sex, and continue to sell it as long as you allow for some variation.

What about novels, paintings and films?
Should they avoid any sexual theme as well?
Do you think video games should remain toys for kids, and only that?

Do you think hustler should be placed on the same magazine rack as good housekeeping, just one shelf above X-men and Nickelodean Magazine? There is a difference between a centerfold, and a painting of a naked woman. The positioning is different, and the context is different.

Sexual theme is one thing, several games already have it, even if it doesn't show it explicitly. Actually, most of them are better because they don't distract away from the storyline to have some sexual cutscenes.

And no. I don't think games should just be toys. You can still release a game with deeper contexts without having to resort to violence or sexuality. Unfortunately, they don't make these games any more. They didn't sell then, and they wouldn't today because most of the people playing games are kids, or adults who aren't too different from their kids intellectually. Most of these were of the point and click, or purely text-based variety, which allowed for the story to be told without graphics and other stuff to get in the way. Now a days, if you want to get into anything too deep, you need to look at indie projects, and accept what graphics there are, if any.

This is one of the most frustrating discussions I've had in a long time as you keep on making things up and putting words in people's mouth.

Who talked about putting all games on the same shelf or in the same section? Are all books in the same section in bookstores? Are CDs all in the same section in a music store? Are movies all in the same section in a video store?

"There is a difference between a centerfold, and a painting of a naked woman. The positioning is different, and the context is different. " And? How does that relate to my question? Did I ever imply this wasn't the case?

"Sexual theme is one thing, several games already have it, even if it doesn't show it explicitly."

Once again, read the article. Very few games do. In short, sexual theme in the vast majority of today's games is just a bit of juvenile flesh waving and cheap or vague references.
Although a lot of adults now do play video games, hardly any are developed with adults in mind. To simplify and exagerate a little so you may get the point, it would be like having SuperHero books and a few Harry Potter novels but hardly any other novels.

"Actually, most of them are better because they don't distract away from the storyline to have some sexual cutscenes."

So you think it would be wrong to have any sexual themes integreted in the main storyline. That's you own personal taste and that's fair enough. Don't imply it would be a bad thing to have such games just because it's not your own personal taste.

"And no. I don't think games should just be toys. You can still release a game with deeper contexts without having to resort to violence or sexuality."

Sexuality is not unhealthy, it's part of life.
There could be games without sexual themes for younger audiences, and for adult audiences as well of course. And there could sometimes be games with a decent plot where sexuality isn't juvenile or inexistant.

And by the way, I agree with you when you write:

Ok, let's step back a bit. Isn't the problem the fact that there aren't many games directed toward adults? Not the content in those games, such as violence, sex, usage of language, ect, but the overall depth and complexity of the game. Can't a game without any violence, sex, or any of that, be enjoyable by adults? Can't even a game geared toward teens be enjoyable by intellectually developed adults? What grand purpose does suddenly adding in more sex serve, really? Game makers could still make good games without using it, maybe not now, with the focus being graphics, but certainly in the past. If the adult film industry gets involved, don't you think it more likely that games will go the way of porn (their specialty), rather than art? Think about this.

*Edit*

On the otherhand, what is really keeping game makers from releasing games with sexual content? There aren't any laws saying that they can't portray it tastefully. They've certainly done it in the past (even if you, or the reporter of that work isn't aware of it). There are certainly alot of people paying lots of money for constant sexual content (called the internet). Why?

This is why. Look at the few games that have had sexual content, most of them have been yanked off store shelves as soon as people find out about it. The reason isn't the game makers, it is society.

That aside. Nobody has ever said to remove it completely, and dumb everything down to gradeschool level. Should it be limited and regulated? Yes. Why? Because there are a great many people who are not ready to totally accept everything that is out there. Does regulating it mean that you're preventing an artist from producing art? Absolutely not. What it does do however is keep those with genuinely unhealthy views from encouraging those views on the populace. Can you make a movie about a child forced into prostitution... Yes. Can you show explicit scenes of that child preforming acts on other people... No. Does it still have the potential to tell the story in an enriching manner without those scenes... Certainly. Are there games out there that deal with this exact subject matter? Yes, it's illegal in most countries, but it still exists (have not played/seen it, will not give you titles). Why bring up this instance? Because from a film perspective there is more responsibility on both those making the product, and those viewing the product. A game can be made by anyone, played by anyone.

Chances are, you're still confused. Let me make it simple. How many games made in the last 5 years have what could be called a "strong and developed" storyline? How many of those don't have a mature rating? Ok, take that number and write it down. Now, how many games made in the last year have a "weak to non-existant" storyline? How many of those have a mature rating? Which group usually sells better?

You want more depth and complexity, but also more sex? Look at the trends... That isn't happening, it's usually one or the other. Go read a book instead.

*edit2*
Lets take this back a step further. How does

suddenly become "we need more sex." Is that 24% or so of all gamers that make up the adult female portion in the contry that interested in sex? Even if it was presented in a mature light, would they want to buy those games? What about the remaining 56% of gamers? Do they actually want games that have sexual content? Aren't most of the people buying these games in the males 15-24 year old range, who themselves aren't what anyone would considder mature? Are even 40-50 year old men really that much more mature than that 24 year old? This could be just a reflection of my own country, but I have seen people alot older than me do some of the most childish things. Age has nothing to do with maturity. If you want to argue this end, tell me how many adult gamers have college degrees, and have had stable, and ongoing work for the last 3-5 years. 10-15% of all gamers, at best right? How many of them are asking for sex games? 2-3% at best right? I may not have the numbers, may have done little research on the matter, but I believe most people could agree with these figures.

Now, from a producer's persepective, is that 2-3% of all gamers worth catering to, or would it make more sense to tone down some elements and make a game that 10-20% of the population would want? We've already agreed on the whole "quality = sucks" front, I think we could agree that most of that 10-20% wouldn't want those games because they would suck. This is another reason why most of the sexually explicit games have been independant projects, and had only small scale marketing. A major company would spend more producing and marketing the product (public outcry aside) than they would likely get back from the small percentage of gamers who would buy it. Then there is the whole public backlash against that company which would only make their situation worse. Look at some of the companies that have had to deal with this, it takes them years to recover.

How is any of this a good idea?

I believe that was the point at the start of this thread - that games need to be more mature, more indepth. Not just the addition of sex and violence, but real adult situations with adult emotions, and all that goes with it. And, as I said earlier, if I want adult situations, I will go upstairs and have them - keep my video games juvenile and I will use them for escape.

The biggest problem with making games grow up (as I see it) is how do you program a computer to react like a woman? There isn't a processor out there big enough or fast enough, and there are no male programmers who can get into a female brain well enough to accomplish the task. Hell, likely they are programming and playing games because they can't figure out their girlfriend now, and you want them to make a computer react like something they don't understand? We already have the real world: let us explore the unreal a little while longer

Nice post, I actually live in Australia and saw the article too, I found it rather interesting.

T'skar, while you evidently dont want to see this in games I am pretty sure others do. Games include everything else, so why not adult themes and sex? And while your point about "I can go upstairs with my real girlfriend" games are like you said, unreal, but I dont see why that exludes sex..? how many times have you had the chance to seduce some fantasy armor clad bimbo in real life might I ask? or an alien? (if thats your thing) or a furry animal-cross-human (yuck, but some people would want it) or been seduced by a goddess? games ARE about the unreal, and YES relationships get tedious in games when they are done like san andreas did them (high maintenence with little storyline) but if it was done right it would add so much.

Seriously think about how many movies and books you have read. Often their main character meets some unwitting girl who starts following the main character around, or meets him at random times. Dont you get a feeling of excitement when the girl finally shows she likes the lead? or when they finally give up hiding their feelings and throw their clothes down and go at it? this sort of thing is even in tv series...? why not games?

There are quite alot of games that follow this same sort of path, with varying degrees of nudity. This is even it's own genere, Dating Sims. The issue is that most adults would rather just watch the tv program/movie, or read the book than play a game involving it. This is mostly because there isn't a whole lot of a gaming element to this sort of situation. The only element that is gameworthy is all the stuff related to figuring out what to say when, and dating sims (atleast the good ones) already have that down. But the discussion isn't about games promoting and encouraging relationships between two people, it is about adding sex to games. If you take that same dating sim, add in several erotic scenes as your "reward" then the game becomes seen more as pornography, and less of anything meaningful, so most adults won't have anything to do with it. Even playing dating sims, something that might help you realize your own flaws, has a certain stigma associated with it. Sex really doesn't translate to games that well, it either ends up being almost a movie/slideshow, or it makes light of the issue. In both cases, it's usually the younger adult (14-22 years old) who's buying it, so they're happy with that sort of stuff.

Its quite simple...
Theres a demand for Sexual based books/magazines publishers provide.
Theres a demand for it in movies ...producers provide.


etc etc IF thers a demand even a Niche demand then someone somewhere will provide it albeit with regulation.

As in anime theres a small niche of explicit PC games available here.

But to say publuishers grow up listen to audience is just stupid...They do they wants money

IF there was a real demand that could be converted into profit..

Then such games would be produced...but the same as movies books magazines rarely by the mainstream there core business is what they want to keep image etc etc.


That they arent produced has nothing to do with companies and everything to do with unproven demand.



its called a market economy.

The entire issue comes from the public viewing video games as a strictly "kids market". A good historical comparison would be movies. Even though there were explicit books way before explicit movies, the public thought that movies were just a novel amusement, not a serious art form, much like video games are thought of today. The masses didn't recognize the artistic potential of movies, so they thought that anything other than a sped up video of a rag-time dance was evil. Art exists strictly to portray all forms of human life in a meaningful(or even just entertaining) way. Although the godfather, the sopranos, and even the illiad have violent and sexual content in them, nobody can deny their place as great works of art. Another problem that faces games is that they are used as a scapegoat. Instead of parents taking responsibility for their job in life (being parents) and not buying GTA:SA(a game named grand theft auto, with suggestive pictures on the front, so if you would just look at the box you shouldn't get it for your ten year old) from knowing about what your kids do. Instead of focusing on the real problems of society, such as corruption, poverty and ignorance, we find it easier and simpler to simply blame a simple game. In the columbine incident, many just blamed the atrocity on the fact that they played doom. Anyone who has read the journal and watched the tapes and read the webpages knows that those boys problems went far, far beyond a simple game. Another issue is that many in the united states view any kind of explicit content is automatically bad(a puritan attitude) and so they would rather have art just be a nice pretty, miniscule portrait of their limited and infantile worldview. Media is a blank slate. People take meaning from it in any way they chose to interpret it.

As far as the games themselves, it's a fine line between making a truly mature game and a vain attempt to gain shock value and to sell to impressionble 10 yearolds. Some games use violence and other explicit gameplay just to make a game for mature auidences, or something that adds to the gameplay or storyline. For instance BMX XXX was just a bad game that sold only because it had naked bikers in, not on the merit of the game itself. That is just a blatant sales pitch. However, some games/movies/books require violence or sex because of what they try to portray. For instance, if you tried to make a movie about the holocaust without truly adressing the horrors of the nazi's twisted creed, it would be impossible, and ultimately an insulting mockery to all of the innocent people that died under hitler's rule.

On the matter of hentai/dating/porn games, I have no problem with them. They just are the natural adaptation of porn into video game form. And we all know porn has it's uses.

Phew. Anbody feel like summarizing that monster of a post?

The entire issue comes from the public viewing video games as a strictly "kids market".

[OT rant deleted]

On the matter of hentai/dating/porn games, I have no problem with them. They just are the natural adaptation of porn into video game form. And we all know porn has it's uses.

It should be noted that games can include sex without being explicit, as in, for instance, Fallout 2. I don't see much use for sex in games (even if it's only implied) except as a plot element or creating a necessary atmosphere.

Right. I'm just saying that some games use explicit sex as a driving force in the plot, unfortunately there are far more that use sex just as a selling point for teenagers and young adults.

You know I seriously don't get why parents, game publishers, and poloticians care don't want any games with nudity or sexual content to exist, but they are almost completley fine anymore with decapitating people just because you feel like it. What would you rather want a person seeing, the best and bloodiest way to maul a person, or stuff that they will without a doubt experiance and see thousands of times in their lives.

just a short one. wth does having sexual content has anything to do with maturity? what about tomb raider, guild war and wow, with all the chicks with big busts. quite opposite actually, actaully they want to add sexual contents to attract the young boys. already IS doing that. but to say specifically that adding sex to games to increase maturity is stupid.

for maturity, it would make sense for example if you have an advanture games with realistic dialog interactions.

its just a game, whatever contents, for a specific or overall consumers, but in the end if its enjoyable than thats all it matter for me.

i think the issue here is more about the laws and regulation of the game contents, and how it effect the (young) players.

Atleast someone gets it.

Ditto. Couldn't gave said it any clearer myself.

I'm glad you're in agreement... be careful about one liner "me too" posts that don't really add anything though you two, as they do count as spam. I'll let you off this once though, as your forum behaviour is normally very good.

Well we are a puritan society that sees sex as a much bigger taboo than violence. For instance, a movie with blood are gore off the wall will most likely have an "R" rating(such as the hills have eyes) but add too much sex and it gets slapped with an NC-17.

Got to agree; My English class last year watched Frankenstein. The teacher fast forwarded through them slobbering over each other's faces (Oh god no! Not affection! Aaaaaaaaaaa!) but managed to let us see someone's heart get ripped out.

Excuse me? Is there some sort of misplacement of taboos here?

The same thing does happen too frequently in computer games, unfortunately.

The "Sex as a bigger taboo than violence" thing has always mystified me. As a briton, I don't have that problem, as the BBFC are vey reliable in their ratings. Anything too violent gets an 18 certificate, yet there have been games with sex in them that have only got a 15 cert. for example: Fahrenheit. This attitude towards "games being for kids" (when they really aren't, in any way for kids) seems to be confined places with an extremely strong religious background, e.g. The United States

Vagrant, I believe that makhno's point was that certain parts in life are under represented (such as sex, love etc.) by all except for a small section of "Dating Sim" games which provide nothing but that (sex, love). Most games focus too much on a specific section, unlike some books, which portray life semi-accurately.

It isn't all about violence or sex.

Emotions would be nice to see influencing anything in a game that isn't just more emotion (or sex). Like violence.

If the vast majority of gamers weren't emotional cripples, who only seem to want violence, lust, and an occasional power trip, I would be inclined to agree with you. There are a few games which don't fall into that framework, but they are released to small markets, and don't sell very well. I believe this is the point I was making (not sure since it was quite awhile ago) that no matter what the aim of producers are for a game, in order to sell the game they will eventually have to cater to those who want just the sex, violence, and sense of power. The fact is that most people wouldn't accept an emotionally charged game that didn't feature some of these elements, infact, such a game would probably be regarded as rather boring, even to the soap opera crowd.

More to the point, sex is just one of those things where once it's allowed in one form, it can arguably allowed in another form. Who can really draw the line between artistic expression and pornography? There is no clear line, if anything that line has become less clear as sex purely for erotic pleasure has become the more accepted norm.

It may not be clear, so let me try to make this as simple as possible. The people determine what kinds of games sell well. Most of the people just want violent, erotic, empowering games. The games that sell well, and encourage other games to be made, are made in according to those wants. In virtually every area of gaming, strategy, simulation, roleplaying, action, ect, games produced, especially as sequals, conform more and more to those wants, cutting out other aspects in the process. Any sort of romance game would, and has, followed that line as well. As sex, and images of sex become more acceptable, more and more games with erotic content will be produced since that is what the market wants. There are very few companies who would go out of their way to release something designed for a niche market, so no matter what you personally want, they will continue to try and aim for the larger group of consumers. Those companies who go for niche markets tend to be very small, do little advertizing (since they can't afford it), and often fail. As any group aimed purly at gaining profit gets involved with games featuring any sort of nudity, those games will cretainly be tailored to the larger market. Regardless what intent the game was designed for, it will either end up being ignored or embraced by the market only for its content.

It isn't that game companies couldn't release a game that accurately depicts relationships between people, it is that such a game wouldn't sell as well as one that focused on the sex within that relationship. As such a game would be seen more for its sexual content, it wouldn't be appreciated for the romantic aspects or depth. Since it would be labeled as porn due to this underappreciation of romantic aspects, and focus on erotic aspects, it could only be advertized within the porn community. Since people seeing those advertizments would also be people who buy porn, and seek only something to jerk off to, those games would be mostly purchased by this group. Due to those reasons, any romantic aspects would likely be regarded as filler to be fast forwarded through by most those playing it... kinda like movies containing more than occasional nudity. Since this becomes the only market that series of games can be sold to, the companies making those games try to release products that feature more of what people want, so that those people are more likely to buy their product.

Actually, I realize that, and my post originally had something to say along the same lines of what you said, but I for some reason I can't remember I deleted that. I realize that it wouldn't sell well, I hope I didn't make it seem like I thought that it would.
Unless you could create a game where if you just attack everyone, you get your violence, and if you don't, you get a deeper meaning for the violence. But for the reasons you pointed out it wouldn't sell or would be twisted into just sex and violence.
Hey now, I like my violence too.