After seeing Oblivion's blood-splattering physics in action (something which was likely inoperable and thus disabled during the game's content review, in which it was awarded a "T" rating), the ESRB re-rated Oblivion as "M." Also a concern was the "butt-fugly" nude female torso that somehow found its way onto the Oblivion Gold master.

Quite nearly addressing the latter concern, Pete Hines said, "obviously we have a pretty big, and active, mod community for the PC version, and there are some gamers who hacked into Oblivion's art archive files and modified them to create a nude upper female torso in the game." Take Two Interactive is currently refusing to answer most questions regarding the matter, but was reported to have stated that they would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling kids.

Ugh, this is just stupid. I'm embrassed to be an American sometimes, with all the stupid sex issues we have here. What a wonderful message to be sending, killing people is fine, but topless women are just too traumatic for anyone under 18 to see. If I ever get the model import/export tools I need, I might have to make a nude female mod of my own (photo-based textures + high poly = good) just out of spite.


From their official statement... now isn't that just an encouraging thought. I have to wonder just what "taking steps" involves, and I have a bad feeling it involves removing the ability to edit textures. Since that's what it would take... even if people don't just paint their own textures, I'm sure more than enough people have copies of the archive file to distribute it as a replacement even if the original source file is removed.



*sigh*

This whole thing just annoys me. If only game developers weren't so spineless about ratings, or people actually understood that the ESRB is a third-party organization with no legally-binding power. But nope, everyone just voluntarily goes along with the censorship because the hordes of easily offended morons demand it.

Remember, the rating change is ostensibly because of increased amounts of blood and gore in the Gold master version of the game when compared to the video that Bethesda submitted as part of their content review. Accordingly, the X-Box 360 version of the game has been re-rated despite the offending art file not being an issue on that platform. That's the side of the story that's being put before the public -- and that's the side of the story that the ESRB is focusing on -- even if the mass media outlets will sensationalize the "OMG SEX" part.

Of course, you can draw your own conclusions about how much more of a part that nudity actually played in this decision. The point is that the ESRB is at least trying to give the public a better reason, and thus isn't really sending the "message" that you claim.

That's exactly what I'm doing, drawing pretty reasonable conclusions. How often do we get any re-rating controversy over a little blood, short of GTA-level overkill? Oblivion is hardly graphic violence worthy of any attention. And notice how much attention Bethesda's official statement pays to the nudity issue... someone's sure concerned about it.

Besides, even if a miracle happened and it isn't about the sex this time, the key point is this time. It's pretty typical of our society, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if the main factor was the possibility of nudity.

If you want to discuss the other incident of this happening, may I please direct you to my thread on Hot Coffee?

Otherwise, your points are void in light of the fact that the ESRB is taking plenty of measures to downplay the importance of nudity in their decision.

Just take a look at Bethesda's official statement and you'll see how "void" they are. Not only do they argue against the nudity issue, but they claim to be "taking steps" to prevent it from happening. Steps that, to do anything useful, would be a huge blow to modding efforts. So whether or not it was the main reason for the change in rating, it's still relevant. We still have people getting upset over some user-added poor-quality nudity. Which is completely absurd to anyone with half a brain (granted, this excludes most of the US population...), since anyone with the internet access to download a mod that unlocks it could download all the porn they could ever watch in a lifetime.

And even the violence issue is just stupid (giving more credit to the idea that it's more about the nudity). Oblivion isn't even close to violent enough to demand an over-18 rating. Not when much more graphic violence is acceptable in movies with the same rating. The level of violence doesn't qualify at all, it's not graphic enough, and it's not presented as the focus of the game.

They say modders hacked into it? Wouldn't that mean that all the art files people retexture are actually "hacked"? That sounds weird, or am i wrong?

I did not not appreciate the sound of that either Pov. Nor these so called steps to prevent that from happening in the future...makes me feel like a naughty child who is getting a slap on the wrist.

This doesn't really bother me. With the presence of naked textures included in the vanilla game I figured it was just a matter of time. As has been said though, saying it was gore that influenced their decision is IMO pointless, I've played Teen rated games with far more gore than OB has.

What does bother me is these "steps", as has already been said. We've already seen how Bethesda is willing to cripple parts of the CS for apparently no reason at all... what will they do when they have a cause to do it? Somewhat worrying. ^^;

Ugh, what a sham.

People should realise that the nude content, while part of the released game - actually made NO appearance in it, and that it can only be accessed by the public if they willingly download the mod. Of course, no one will realise - because they're all stupid, or something like that. This kind of thing isn't an issue in England, and nor will it ever be, I hope.

Little wonder that I was reading an article today about how gay and lesbian couples from the USA are all immigrating to the UK and Europe. The USA is beggining to come across as a really rubbish place to live...

However, ever since Bethesda released THIS Press release, I'm pretty confident that Modding will not be affected much either.

This whole issue is screaming out "Lack of Common Sense" to me. Bethesda, please move to England.

I don't know about that... look at the quote that says "we're taking steps to keep this from happening". Now either that means they're going to do something pointless like deleting the original art file (accomplishing nothing, as downloadable mods can simply include it in the package) or they're going to block modders from editing the texture files. Hindering modding efforts is the only way to actually stop the nudity mods, and I fear that's exactly what Bethesda has in mind.

As far as I'm aware it seems the press are slightly misinformed regarding the nudity part. If you read through GameDaily's comprehensive report they seem to suggest it is a modder who has added this new bodily texture to the game. As far as I know the body texture (as ugly as it is) was actually a part of the original game and simply unlocked by changing a filename or something. Is this correct?

As such surely Bethesda have only themselves to blame for this stupid mistake? Either they didn't learn from the Hot Coffee incident or it was something that should have been removed but wasn't. Either way it's Bethesda's fault.

Is there a difference between having nude content that can be unlocked by changing a filename and nude content that can be unlocked by changing an option in-game? Surely there isn't except with the former the developers can claim it was never intended to be used. A pretty lame excuse in my opinion. If you don't want a nude texture to be used you delete it. End of.

Agreed... Bethesda was pretty stupid leaving it in in light of what's happened (if the nudity thing is what it's about). But who would guess the result...

And how can Bethesda prevent people from using that now anyway? Even by releasing a patch preventing texture modding, people only have to not use the patch... it's not like the game's broken without it. Or maybe they'll just try removing the offending art file from the archive to satisfy the ESRB?

But can someone explain why everyone's going on about Hot Coffee? Obviously something I haven't read...

EDIT: Just read Bethesda's press article...


Do these correlate? Are they intending to prevent nudity-hacking but leave the blood and gore as is? Seems to be a contradiction otherwise (??). Of course, preventing players from hacking in a partial nudity modification when they don't intend to try to keep the Teen rating seems rather pointless.

This is an outrage. As Switch said, some Teen rated games have much more blood and violence in them, and when I played them I got myself killed...let's not go there, and now I wonder, based on the Oblivion change, how in the world those games got the rating of Teen. I need to be restrained, lest I go and slash up the Oblivion boxes, or at least the ratings, to show my displeasure with this disaster. The XBOX 360 version is only modifiable via official plugins, so it should have at least retained its rating. Curse ERSB for their lack of common sense in looking at the variables, and rating this game worse than a Teen rated game that deserves a Mature rating!

I really must stop this ranting, but I feel better now having blown off some steam in this post.

There is nothing wrong with the blood&gore in oblivion. If this nudity thing had never been there, ERSB would never had mentioned anything about the violence that would make it necissary to change the rating. They are just using it to make them stand stronger.

Seriously, what is the worst thing they can do? They can block access to the original file, but modder's WILL make new meshes/textures, so that won't solve the nudity problem, although it would free Bethesda from being their fault.

The worst things they could do is either making adding new textures/meshes to the game impossible, or completely disable the CS in a patch (). I don't think either will happen. In a few weeks time we will probably be laughing about this, and the nudity mods will be made again... At least, that's what I hope. (The laughing part, mind you!)

I wasn't surprised by this development causing such a stink. I was just waiting for it, but also at the same time if you look. Bethesda doesn't remove anything from the game, they didn't in morrowind either. There are E3 files in the game, there are still test boxes and such just sitting around. Heh, there is even a inactive NPC named Indigo Montoya lol. Daggerfall had nudity in it also, but where's the stink over that. I thought for a while there we were clear of this hot coffee mentality. I guess we are still neck deep in wimpy politicians and irresponsible parents.

Did Morrowind also had problems? A later release, changed ERSB rating, or anything else? I only got MW in start 2005 so I don't know that much about that

Agreed. A company should not be held responsible for what the modding community later does to the game. That said, I still find it odd that the ESRB seems to favor/allow more violence in game than nudity. Heaven forbid we actually see human beings how they are without clothes.

You may want to check out this link for an attempt to inch Oblivion up to an "Adults Only" rating:

http://www.tessource.net/files/cache/4119.html

This is all just pathetic. For crying out loud, Baulders Gate got a teen rating, and it was far worse than Oblivion.

It was some years ago. Today probably even BG will get a M rating, if someone will remember it. Or, and "Betrayal at Krondor" will get that too. =)


Actually, I think what a M rating for Oblivion - is good. Violence and potential nudity aside, the game is quite long and complex. Teens can get tired and frustrated by this. To enjoy this game, you need some patience and experience in role-playing. And a lot of casual teen gamers, attracted to the game by it's great visual quality, will probably lack that.

I realize I am likely posting on a dead thread, but I just got here and felt like I had something to contribute:

I would be much less concerned about these "steps" that they're taking. Why? Because it's clear in their press release that they really don't care what the ESRB had to say. While reading over their article, I couldn't get the impression of a winking eye out of my mind. A sort of, "yea, we're taking 'steps' *wink wink*"

I beleive this is a statement to get the ESRB off of their backs. Not only was the article in opposition to the statements by the ESRB, it completely made them sound like idiots, which generally is the perspective with which they should be associated with.

As a major in Game Art & Design, I am of the opinion that all these mods, including the nudity mod, were forseen, and intended. If not by the company that released the game, then by the designers themselves. As described by the original modder, the mod was so easy to do that it seemed almost intentional.

The actions I forsee the creators making, if any, would include a game patch, similar to a bug fix. However... I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the patch were released entirely separate from any other bug fixes, and would be completely stand-alone, and thus very optional.

Games are made with the fanbase in mind. The modding ability of the game is definitely a focal point of the communities surrounding the game, so why would they tamper with it if they knew that their fans would be upset? They wouldn't.

It is my gut feeling that they are just looking for a nice way of saying, "Shove off, ESRB, take your crusade elsewhere."

(I have more to add...)

I think that it would be great if Bethesda decided to release patches which could be purchased for a small fee, that would make the game worthy of this B.S. rating. Why the small fee? Well, for one, to pay the people for their extra work, and two, so that they can say that the patch had to be purchased by an adult, (18 & up) through use of a credit card.

I think it would be nice to see great high-quality blood spattering textures, and limb lopping action. Heck, I say make the game AO, and then some.

I know that they won't do this, because they said that they weren't aiming for any particular rating; they were aiming for accuracy to the concept of the game, which is something that is all-too-commonly abandoned. So why would they release a more hard-core version of the game if it would disrupt said integrity of the game?

These, I suppose are my musings, but not the musings of the uninspired, nor the idle wishes of a humble gamer, but these are the intentions which I will take with me into the work force when I finish up my BS Degree. I will make a game which will completely disregard the whining and wimpering of the angry mothers associations and impotent, limp willed efforts of the ESRB.

You'll love it.

I too realize the, erm, well, deadness of this thread. But, ther is something i want to say.



I am a teen gamer, and my view of the Elder Scrolls games, OB in particular, is that its nice to be another peron, to live another life. I want to have a diferent house, to go off crusading and do fun sidequests. The depth of the game, right down tothe last accessory for your character, right down to your clothes and actions. is totally blowaway, not the graphic content. I hate my life, so i make a new one when I play Elder Scrolls. I do inderstand, for some of the sad blokes, why they turn the blood up, and why they mod it to have nudity. Those people have no reson to play, as they have no appreciation for the deep role-playing. I feel sorry for them, theyre so immature about it. I happened to have bought the collector's edition last month. I actually read the pocket guide to empire. Its neat, to have a delicate and detailed understanding of another world, instead of learning about it in school. The pocket guide is like a geography ro social studies book. Doe sanyone else appreciate the theology and history of Tamriel and Nirn altogether? People that dont, such as the ones who allegedly hacked nd modded nudity into oblivion, dont really deserve to get into OB. Its a waste of $60(I bought the collectors edition) And the compelxity, quite thrilling, mind you. Its like reading a Tom Clancy novel, only with the medieval setting and live action. I actually have scorn for those who think such is a waste of time, not looking at nude women. Heaven forfend we ever enjoy a classic, ever live a new life of heroism or complexity. Heaven forfend we do somethng sophisticated, rather than blow the sh*t out of aliens, (pardon my language, it seemed appropriate). And as for the potential resentment of casual gamers. I do actually enjoy unsophisticated nonsense such as GTA every now and then, just for kicks. If only I could play OB online, I would try to spread this new of thinking to casual teen gamers who dont know what the heck they're doing in skill creation. Rather, they throw a character hodgepodge together and go out to murder people and steal and all the nasty things our world has. Would it not be nice to rid Oblivion of that, to have a clean and engaging world for prosperity? No, the willy nilly manner of charcter creation and obscene content must carry on, as I am ashamed to say. You may ask, "Oh why does one ponder such?" My answer is that I wanted an explanation and new philosiphy to correct the offenive and invalid above generalization(see quote). Not all of us are casual hodge podge Joes. Im not saying Im better or more experienced, I just see it differently, and wish it to be different. The "M" rating doesnt specify an age for appropriate viewing of obscenities, no, its a sign that says you have to be mature, responsible, and dedicated to play the game!!! So sont be angry with ESRB, theyre doing right. (PLus, I bought mine before the rating changed!!!heheheheh)

There, I need'nt ramble on about the statement made. Ive given my answer and stated my claim.

Art archives and Game content are not necessarily the same.

Regarding the previous post...I don't mind teen gamers per se, it's the illiterate ones I can't stand.

Incidentally, from what I hear, the 'nude female upper torso' was done by making a copy of the nude MALE torso (which has guynipples, of course) and overwriting the female texture with it. Which certainly explains a lot of the comments about it being 'butt ugly'.

If this particular fact had been mentioned to the ESRB, I wonder if they would still be forcing the rating change. I know it takes the wind out of the sails of a lot of other arguments, such as 'Oh, Bethesda intentionally included it!' or even 'It was a modification, of course someone would come out with one!' Yes, it was art included in the game, no, it was not art meant to be used as a female texture.

I do agree with the previous few posters - it deserves the Mature rating anyways. People die, people are tortured, entire cities are slaughtered, there's blood every time you get in a fight. Just the gruesome nature of the ragdoll physics inherent in the Havok engine pushes it towards the M rating, in my opinion. The Teen rating is for -unrealistic- violence, making a distinct separation between it and real world violence which is disturbing enough to cause nausea in most witnesses. Obilvion tries to make it as realistic as they can without actually showing the wobbly pink bits left over when you cleave someone's skull in half.

That's my two septims, at least.