The purpose of this poll and discussion is to determine how you feel about Bethesda charging for content that either used to come with the original game or was free, as well as, discussing what you believe to be fair concerning the price of said content.

Legend:

Individual Mod: any mod that contains a small amount of content
Package of Mods: a grouping of individual mods
Mini Expansion: a package of mods or an individual mod that results in a large amount of content
Complete Expansion: practically a whole other game in itself
Yes: a yes, no matter the cost
No: a no, no matter the cost
Only if the price is right: will purchase only if the purchaser deems the price to be fair
Undecided: no opinion as of now

There has also been some discussion over whether or not Bethesda will charge for patches. These claims have already been denied by Bethesda and, besides, it is illegal for them to not support their own software. So, cast your vote and make your voice heard... or not... whatever.

It's not illegal, it's just not very nice. There's no law requiring you to give the customer what they want, at the price they want. And that includes patches... as a customer, you always have the choice of not buying a product that doesn't perform to your satisfaction. If you buy it anyway, you don't have a legal right to have it fixed at no cost. Sure, a company might lose all their sales by refusing to support their products, but it's not illegal.

As for the question:

Individual Mod: Probably not, unless it actually fixes one of the issues I've listed elsewhere. I'd pay for a mod that added spears as a separate skill (assuming I didn't do it myself first), but not for yet another "Your House in Balmora" mod. Anything besides solutions to those issues will probably be done by the community, for free. The only reason I'd pay money for them is because they'd require modifications to things that are (apparently) hard-coded and can't be fixed by the community. I'd do it reluctantly, but I'd pay for it... Oblivion at its full potential with all those issues fixed would be such an amazing game, I think it would be worth it.

Package of Mods: Since I wouldn't buy the mods individually, I won't be buying them in groups. Especially since the price will be higher, and I'd be stuck paying for a pile of garbage just to get the one I might actually want.

Mini Expansion: Depends on the price. Something like the ones for Neverwinter Nights, I'd probably buy, assuming they were done at an acceptable level of quality.

Full Expansion: Probably, assuming the price is within reason.

If a mod added polearms to the game it would require all new animation which would add a large amount of content to the game. In addition, I don't see why Bethesda would group a bunch of unrelated mods together.

As far as charging for patches being illegal, I don't think the case could be tried in criminal court but it definitely could be tried in civil court (ie a class action suit). That is what I was refering to.

unfortunately polls like this arn't going to get the attention of Bethesda or convince them to change their policy. The only thing that will get them to drop the idea of purchased official mods is if the sales are so low that they arn't worth doing.

Individual: I'm not buying horse armor, but I'll probably buy the next two. The Mages tower and the other one, they sound worth two dollars. Horse armor doesn't. So I guess what I'm saying is, if the price and content are "right", sure.

Package: The same thing would apply here, if the price and content are "right".

Small expansion: Once again, this depends on how small, and how much.

Expansion: Something like Tribunal or Bloodmoon? Sure.

And that's the only reason I'd pay for it, because it adds something to the game that us mere mortals can't. Of course I could easily do it myself if I had access to the animations, but as it is, I'd (reluctantly) settle for making Oblivion the game it should be through a little extra money.



For more profit of course, the same reason they're charging for them at all. Group a popular mod in with a lot of poorly-selling ones, raise the price, and people buy the whole package to get the good one.



And any sane judge would laugh as he throws out the case. Unless it is explicitly promised that the publisher will provide free support for the product, they'd have no case. The fact that you aren't happy with the performance of something you bought is not enough to win even a civil case. Neither is you making the assumption that you will be given a service that isn't promised.

r3t's post removed - advocating software piracy is not permitted on these forums.

Thed other question is- How do you pay for them? If it is credit or debit card, then I'm out. I dont have either one and my dad is the only one who might consider it. THat mages tower did look cool, but unless I can pay with check or cash, then I probably wont get any.

I selected "yes" for all of them.

Why? Because it's never going to be any other way, that's why. I'm not going to complain about spending my money on these because I understand the manpower it takes to make them and all that - and because I know that they're never going to change it.

Besides, it's only £1.50.

Well, I'm pleasantly surprised that, more than likely, most people won't purchase individual mods. Other than that, the poll seems to be going the way I would've predicted. Although, I could be wrong. Only time will tell.

Another thing to consider is Xbox players (like myself), all probably said no to the mods thing for obvious reasons.....and i think the only reason other players said no is there are alot of people on these forums that make some of their own mods so thats why that question didnt go the way you thought it would.

I would purchase an expansion or a mod collection IF the price was right. I'm still very mad though because with Morrowind all of this was FREE! Now we only get patches free. I think we should at least have the Orrery free because the door was in the game but the content wasn't. They pretty much gave us an incomplete game! I think they should fix everything and give us the Orrery free because thats like saying, here's the game for $60 (or $70 depending on what version you bought) but parts of it are broken and some content is missing. You can buy the content back for a low price of $2 though. I mean give me a break! I know it's not a lot but still. This stuff was free with Morrowind so any amount of money is more than we had to pay for Morrowind mods. There is an infinite differance there! (2 / 0 = Unsolvable Equation = Infinite Differance) Also, $2 for horse armor? If they keep doing this it will start to add up and eventually you will be paying for your game once over. For most other games, extra stuff is free. If you had to pay $2 for every little bit of extra content for NWN you'd be paying a heck of a lot of money! Don't let Bethesda sucker you into buying their content because if you give them a little, they will take a lot and soon enough you will be paying for your game all over. Don't get me wrong, they're a great company but I just think this is outrageous!

"How many of these mods on this site alone are true fixes, of programming errors that is? Sure...I know we haven't gotten the first patch yet...but should we even be expecting to wait?! It's like buying a car missing a few 'pieces' that are either absent or inferior. Why as a consumer have we rolled over on this issue to the point where we now expect to recieve a game that has obvious omissions, inaccuracies, and outright lazy programming. A clear example is the hunting Mod...which fixes the opacity of the lion pelt, which was set to true from what the author of this mod states. That's a pretty glaring omission, or oversight as it may be. Or how about the LOD handling which could have been done more efficiently? In essence what I'm saying is that we mod for many reasons, to enhance, change, and in some cases to wipe the a** of the lazy programmer who missed one of his responsiblities. I may make some horse armor of my own just to see it in the game as a free add on. I was very discouraged by this development. What will Bethesda do for money? I'm starting to wonder about that and only time will tell."

(Quoted from another thread in here. Sorry to be lazy ) Will I pay for anything short of a full blown addon expansion (like Tribunal and Bloodmoon) no, why pay for what this community makes for free...which extends the life of said game by YEARS...with fresh playable content. It should be a symbiotic relationship between coders and gamers. Think of how many people told friends about the amazing game they had to have because it will never stop moving forward. I must have sold 20 copies for them at least, through word of mouth advertising. As for pay mods...no thanks I'll make 'em myself. Maybe they aren't responsible to release a bug free game, but software CANNOT be returned at most stores...there is no test drive (sure some mags have em, but there must be a portion of people who have no idea, like people buying them as a gift etc, who have no knowledge of the game).

I think adding animation is possible. I'd imagine at least...I know it was in Morrowind, (dancing girls in earthly delights bar...many more examples as well), it's a matter of exporting them with the model out of 3dsMax, I think, as I haven't actually done this myself in the Oblivion setting. I still haven't checked out the editor (Oblivions') too much yet, I'm afraid of coming across content that might spoil stuff...adding polearms should be fairly feasable.

Unless things have changed since the last official statement I saw, it's not possible. They've said the animations (weapon animations) are not editable, as in the game won't even recognize any animation you try to add. Even if you could completely understand Oblivion's animation system without documentation (and this is a pretty big assumption, even for a 3d expert), you'd still have to hack the game engine to recognize the new files and add them to the list of options in the CS.

Related to the things that are left out from the game, as u know there is not cloth wearing under the armor. However, most of the humans i kill in the game have cloths besides their armor. In my opinion, this means they thought of making people wear clothes under armor but they just left it out. I think that is just laziness, either leave it out completely or add it goddammit!

Individual Mod: NO! I will not pay!

Package of Mods: NO! I will NOT pay!

Mini Expansion: Depends on the price! Nothing over $35.99

Full Expansion: YES! I will pay! Thats just like Tribunal and Bloodmoon.

Holy crap! $35.99 for a mini expansion... thats about as much as a full expansion would cost. How long did it take you to grow that money tree?

To answer the question posed of would I buy a mod or mod pack ect I am undecided because what matters is if the content is good enough to warrent buying it and so far I have to say no. If they come out with something decent and fun then I probly will.

2horse armors that don't look great isn't worth it imo
1fedex quest and 4 lesser power spells that add and reduce stats isn't worth it (may be worth it with the cool looking orrery but haven't seen any screenies yet to make me interested)
At least they are getting closer to something I would pay for.

I have to say basing thier opinions based on how they like the practice of mods ect rather then the content which is sad. If Beth released something worth buying I would buy it. If they keep releaseing things like the orrery and horse armor I won't. Neither are worth the cost for me. I however have bought every non portable elder scrolls game from arena to oblivion (except redgaurd). The only disappointing one was battlespire. Also bought tribunal and bloodmoon and was slightly disappointed with tribunal but felt I got my money out of it and loved bloodmoon.

So long as the modder community pushes what they can do with the CS and add scripts that dramatically change the way the game can be played and enhance the open ended theme of Oblivion, Beth will have to beg for my money. Horse armor = dumb; Orrery = waste of time/ money; Wizard Tower = dumb, waste of time, waste of money.

http://www.tessource.net/files/file.php?id=2915 for example is IMO the best mod released for Oblivion. Not only does it make use of something that already exists in the game, it makes it 1 million times better than how Bethesda worked it into the game. Aside from the simple fact that being able to have goblins follow you around is cool, the modder did it in such a way that makes logical sense in the game environment. As a player character, having possession of their tribal totem signify your dominance over their culture is a wonderful game mechanic. Also consider that aside from the DB and TG, there are no real outlets for evil aligned characters, and to me, calling the TG evil is a stretch. The DB is about all that qualifies, but they function in a way that qualifies as at least lawful evil; but mindless killing for profit get's old after a while. Having access to be able to take control of goblin population gives evil characters access to those minions they've always wanted (Saruman and Sauron anyone?). This opens up the possibility for you to roleplay as an evil character, and truly do evil things (eg. run your tribe into a town and let them wreak havoc on the populace or simply have a horde of bodyguards). In my opinion, it is this kind of example other modders should follow when developing and adding new content to the game, that they use the existing rules of the gameworld in such a way the improves the quality of the game experience in whatever domain the mod improves. I hope to see more mods like this in future; there are few mods out right now that actaully change how the game is played that I think are worth downloading, and this one is at the top of my list.

This poll should be limited to X-Box users only, not PC users. PC users shouldn't ever have to worry about buying mods, as the free mod community has the power to always put out something equivalent and in most cases better than anything you can pay for.

No. That is not possible for now in the case of elaborate modelling as Bethesda have yet to release the import/export tools. Texturing may be possible but that is it.

OK, I guess I just assumed modding for Oblivion was basically the same as modding for Morrowind, with just using the Oblivion TES Construction set. I haven't actually used or created any Oblivion mods yet, so I'm talking out of my ass a little bit here. But I've come across many websites hosting hundreds of user-created mods, ranging from new items, game tweaks, new buildings, NPC's, new quests, more armor and weapons, new faces and hairstyles you can use, and much, much more, including horse armor. So what is it that the modder cannot do? Why can't I just make my own original horse armor? Can you define "elaborate modelling" and the import/export tools that you refer to?

Sure.

Modding is basically the same, with a few new features and a few missing and much loved ones. (The ability to add new skills and player animations.)

While not a 3d modeller myself, if I had to explain the import/export factor, it means that Bethesdas models are licensed to Bethesda themselves. Their format requires a special 'plugin' for it to be edited by 3d Studio for example, or for 3d Studio to be able to create new meshes that Oblivion would recognise and accept.

Bethesda released a plugin for an older version of 3ds for Morrowind. However we require one for Oblivion now in order to see new 3d models. Which I think is a real pity, but I have no doubt that in the future Bethesda will see the light and release the import/export features...albeit at a price.

Thanks for the explanation. So you're saying that the horse is one of these off-limits models? That confused me, because I remember seeing horse armor mods at what is in my opinion the best mod site so far at http://www.tessource.net/files/index.php (if anyone knows of any better, let me know!)

Well, I just went there to look them up again to prove my point, and they're no longer there, or at least I can't find them. When I saw them there before, it was early after Oblivion's release, the same day the official horse armor mod was released. I went to that mod site originally that day upset that I had to pay for the horse armor and was hoping to find a different free horse armor mod that would make me feel better. There was a horse armor mod there for free download and that made me feel better, and I thought "Great! I'll download them later on when I've played the stock game enough and I'm ready to add some mods!" I mentioned that to a fellow Morrowind/Oblivion fan (my 65 year old dad actually) who knows more about computer stuff than I do, after he complained about the pay-for horse armor mod. He frowned, and said he thought it was probably the same official mod somehow, not a different one. I dismissed that statement, thinking it was indeed a different original mod and he was just ignorant about the possibilites of the free-mod world.

Looking back at it now with your statements in mind, I think he was right and I was the ignorant one, and the site must've removed it from their database after that first couple of days. I did a thorough search, and nothing came up. I came across a couple of "skins" that says after you buy the horse armor mod, you can use these for variety.

Anyway, that's why I was confused, as I saw the horse armor mod for free download briefly and thought it was an original. Dang, wish I downloaded it back then when I saw it. So there are some things that modders can do, and things they can't do, and the things that they can't do are going to be what's released on a pay-for basis I realize now. I can now understand all the pay-for complaints, as I thought it was a moot point for PC players, but now I understand. Thanks for the clarification! I'm now as upset as everyone else. Thanks, thanks alot.

Now I must rant for a minute now that I know I'm supposed to be mad about this.

I don't foresee Bethesda eventually releasing this stuff later on for us to mod for free, because wouldn't that just piss off everybody who's been paying for it all htis time? As it stands now, I'm going to really have to consider buying the damn horse armor now when I'm ready to add mods, all this time I incorrectly thought I could armor my horse for free through the mod community. If I thought Bethesda would later down the road release this stuff so we could mod it ourselves, I would be tempted to wait it out and not buy it, and that would be a bad business model for makers of that horse armor I think.

Aargh, $2 for some simple little thing like horse armor? That's 5% of what I paid for the entire game. Give me something that adds 5% to the Oblivion game world, and I'll pay $2 for it. But stinkin' horse armor? That's gotta be like not even adding one tenth of one percent to the Oblibion game world. And yet, I want it, I must have it!!! Those bastards!!!!!!!

So far the reviews for Bethesda's first two official mods have not been so good. Most people who have posted have really reamed them and I have yet to read any glowing reviews for either of these mods. It seems that Bethesda's first attempt at Pay-For-Download content isn't going so well, but I have absolutely no idea what their profits are like so... jury is still out I guess.

I would not be likely to pay for a single mod from the devs of Obliv unless it was something so cool that I really really felt I couldn't play the game without it.

Of course I would pay for future expansions of Obliv, and I pray that there will be some that will remedy the glaring ommissions of some vital things we had in Morrowind .... Levitatiion, throwing weapons, etc.

I doubt very much that levitation will be added back, seeing as how the gates to the cities act as activators and doorways to seperate cells. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I could mostly care less about a few small "uber-tested" official mods.

I would FAR rather see them put the efforts into bug fixes and patches than small bit's and pieces of fluff and window dressing that really add noithing of major impact to the game. And even with all the testing, the shear volume of complaints over on the main bethesda site about problems with these "tested & official" mods tells me they really were not tested all that well after all.

EG: for those who bought but didn't like the horse armor after all and tried to uninstall it, it deletes your current horse even if it's shadowmare? That just screames of a BADLY done mod.

I see this attitude in so much software today. EG: "Hey, _MY_ product is so cool, noone will ever want to uninstall it so we won't bother to test what really happens when you try to do so.. This is true of full on, professionaly made, purchased software as well... "Hey, why isn't there any way to uninstall this thing that is screwing up my PC?"

Amature/player created mods, for the most part, seem to be far better behaved and safer to install and uninstall at will than the official ones so far. This tells me QA is asleap at the wheel and to be warry of ANY further products. Um. Hmmm... SHOULD I download the patch and install it when it DOES show up? Will that make the game better or will it screw it up WORSE? tough call at the moment. We can only wait and see.

After patches and fixes, then full expansions (EG: Tribuneral and Bloodmoon style) are great as they provide whole new playgrounds to romp around in. They are where any major additional work and addons like polearms or the ability to fight (or do ANYTHING usefull from horseback) SHOULD be included, NOT in some dinky, half-baked $1.99 mod. The amount of new goodies and quests, etc. would determine the price for said expansion package(s).

That is, in essence, the real problem. Bethesda built the game around the XBox instead of the PC, which made for some slightly disappointed PC gamers. In a perfect world the game would have been built for both formats, however, that would have meant creating two seperate games; not cost effective. Hopefully patches will close the gaps created by the XBox version.

Here is my take on it, i think all of these mods are decent...going by content and what theya dd to the game. It is the pricing that it faulty.

(note: the following prices are in US dollars)

WIzard's tower, orrery, and Thieves den are each 1.89. Horse Armour is 1.99. Together, that totals $7.66. The Wizard tower, orrery, and thieves den are OK by themselves. THey add some buildings/areas of exploration. Horse armour is absurd for 1.99. If the bundled them together for 5 dollars, then it might be more reasonable.

By megabyte: Thieves den is 4.5mb, WIzard's tower is 17.6mb, and orrery is 18mb. Horse armour is 6.2mb.

The biggest joke is the comign soon plug in. Mehrune's razor. It is $2.99. It is a whopping 2 megabytes in size, so it seems Bethesda is getting more greedy as they see people are willing to pay for these rinky dink add-ons. It won't break the bank, but how long before we see 5 and 10 dollar plug ins?

Bottom Line: They are a great idea when you bundle these together into a 10 dollar mini expansion, but being nickel and dimed for each one is annoying.

Adding levitation would also mean easy Oblivion gates. In some planes you have to go from one tower to the other to make a path to the upper main tower part. With levitation you could skip all that and just head right to the main tower. The A.I. has to be tweaked as well, because they have to react in a different way when you are flying.

Levitation probably makes things way to easy. And then you still have the city thing what Stampede just said.

They raised the price for the mehrune's razor for what? ONE big dungeon plus a few journal updates, and one new texture and mesh? We can do much better ourselves, for free! Except for the meshes thing, but people always find solutions or altenatives to these things, I believe there is one already.

I hope this is just a one time thing, I wouldn't like to see all the mod prices raised to 2.99...

I don’t understand the problem with this; all of the mods that you are required to pay for are free to download some where on the net. I can understand buying the expansion that’s what I did but if Bethesda wants to charge us for mods then I say we should download them on principal.
I think a better marketing strategy for Bethesda would be to stop calling them “mods” and just package them and claim it’s an expansion to try and take the sting out of paying for mods, it worked for EA with the Sims.

I'd like to respectively disagree with this thought. I use Blender, Photoshop, and NIFSkope to mod for Oblivion, and I've not yet found anything that cannot be done.

As far as buying from Bethsoft, if they ever produce a 'killer' mod or expansion, and the price is reasonable, I would buy it. Otherwise, I'll make my own, or use the Nexus to download good stable mods for free.

At least for some Mods the Price is good. Well, i dont use Horses much, so i wont buy the Horsearmor. But the Houses are nice. For 2 $, why not.

A Package of Mods: Depends on its contents. If Bethesda where to release all their Mods so far, including KotN, for a Price half the Price one would pay if he bought all the Mods, i wouldnt buy that. Only half the Mods are good and i already have some of the good ones. Would be a bad deal for me.

A miniexpansion: Knights of the Nine would qualify as this. Well, i would like to test that first. KotN was not that good...
Well, it did add a nice Armor which you can use forever and ever because it "grows" with your Character.
Its Enchantments are quite crappy and it doesnt look that well. It looks like some Sort of Steel...
If KotN is worth the Money is up to you. I liked it, but i dont wear the crappy armor =)

A Fullblown Expansion: I would buy that. In fact, i am worrying if my uk english Version of SI will ever arive here. Hmpf!

Look at the dates on the posts you're quoting...

Indeed, it has been dead for 2 years. We should let it rest in peace.