Hi, this is my very first post here at the forum.

I followed this mod for a long time and when it shut down I desperately looked for something else that reminded about this mod. I found some links to AME Mod which probably most of you allready know of.
What I want to say, is that there is alot of progress there... The AME map is 15 x larger than Vaardenfell, and it looks very promising. 4000 new models and 200 quests. I know it was dead before, but it waked up from the sleep...
It will be released in german but also in english.
I recomend for you who want to try the mod (which is about 2gb) sign up now because it will only be released to the members.

That was all for me... and here is the link to AME Mod:



EDIT: link removed

Unfortunately the mod's primary language (and only language, as far as I can tell, on the site) is not one I talk with confidence, so I neither follow it nor have any interest in it.

I am not convinced that the 'loophole' employed by the AME mod is actually legal and can therefore not endorse this mod.


For that reason I am removing the link.

1. AME Mod has some topics only in english... But you probably allready knew that.

2. Oh, sorry Theta Orionis didn´t know it could be illegal (the german dev´s said it wasn´t)... But in that case, can they sue the members downloading it or only the makers of the Mod?

Regards

Radier.

We cannot really tell. We are unable to say anything final about whether AME is illegal or not, mainly also because we don't know the details about what they have planned, it is just that as things are at the moment and appear to us, we have rather a feeling that AME is not fully legal - we may be wrong, but we hope you can understand that we prefer to be careful and not to do anything wrong.

ok, thank´s for the warning... I will look that up with the AME team, wether it is as a member illegal to download the mod, or if only the dev´s can be sued...

I think their claim is that they're only making it as a personal project - they are only releasing it to the makers. If it were a personal project, it would be legal. The loophole is that they have people join the forums and post an idea [something like that]. Doing so makes said people "members" of the developing team; hence, they would only be releasing it among the makers as a personal project. I don't how much that will hold up in court, so....

I think you are right. That won't hold up in court, but do you also think only the dev's can be sued, or have everyone including the so-called members taken a risk when registered at AME Mod?

The devs can be sued for making and distributing it. The downloaders could proabably claim that they did not know it was illegal, or use some other form of bending the truth to avoid prosecution. But they could [I believe so] still be prosecuted [the downloaders.] It's like P2P programs, like Kazaa* and Morpheus** - the user is not distributing the files, but it is still illegal to download them.


*I do not support Kazaa nor its use.
**I do not support Morpheus nor its use.

Standard protection.

Ok, I understand your point.
Thanks for telling me this. I will be a little more carefull now, maybee wait a week after the release and then download it or something like that. I don't know.

Radier.

If it can only be downloaded by members, would that not make everyone who downloads it a developer?

I am not a copyright lawyer - just doubtful that what AME are doing is legal. I could be wrong - but until someone convinces me that I'm wrong and that what AME are doing is in fact completely above board I would prefer the MEMod forums to keep a clear distance from AME. That's why I removed the link in the first post of this thread.

Even if it were legal to distribute among the developers (which I think is doubtful) - the developers are also responsible for making sure the property does not go outside the string of developers. Can anyone really not see this mod getting into the hands of the general public?

At which point the AME team can be taken to court regarding inadequate protection of a copyrighted propety which they don't own the copyright to.

I don't know if you allready knew this, but a dev at the AME told me they have changed the names, like Ithilien to Itilien and so on... Do you think this make it legal?

I very much doubt it. I would be very surprised if Tolkien's maps - ie the layout of Middle-earth - weren't protected by copyright too.

If AME releases their mod, they put themselves at risk for lawsuits. MEMod was not willing to take such a risk, hence the termination of the project. There is no 'loophole' in copyright laws like the AME staff have suggested, by simply altering the names of places.

I'm pretty sure that the maps to ME are copyrighted as well [including the layout.]

All I'll say is that I wish the AME team a lot of luck. I don't believe that their loopholes are likely to hold up if they are ever nailed by a court, however. It's part of why I would not even dare take such a route with memod.

*raises a glass*

Here's to AME - the best of luck, I wish I'd not had the future concerns to worry about, and been able to push Memod onward, like you are with Adventure Middle-Earth - I'll look forward to hearing that it's completed, someday...

Even if you do get sued for it.

I don't know what the chances of them getting sued would be - but ot's something I wouldn't risk. They, however, are not me, so we'll see what happens...

i might be wrong but i dont think theres any chance in a mod team actually being sued. lawsuits cost money.... a lot of money. and of course there has to be someone to file the lawsuit. i cant see anybody in their right state of mind actually sueing a mod development team as there just isnt enough money to be made and there just is no victim in this "crime". things like individual team members living in different countries further complicate legal matters and, depending on which countries, decrease chances of success (for the prosecutor).
dont take me wrong, i dont want to rekindle old discussions about memod teams decision. i respect and accept the teams choice not to take these risks, i just dont think its a realistic danger. i mean just look at all the different lotr mods out there (not to mention mods of other copyrighted material). itll be interesting to see how many of them get sued. i bet you 10$ - not a single one

*nods*
*thinks the same*

There are a lot of assumptions in your post - the assumption that no one would bother to protect a very valuable and highly sought after copyright, the assumption that suing for money might be the only motivation for a lawsuit, the assumption that international companies might find it beyond them to take legal action against people in other countries.

However, there are other perspectives to this.

As stated, the Middle-earth copyright is an extremely valuable commodity - but only while it is protected and enforced. Imagine you're the managing director of a company willing to pay an insane amount of money for this copyright, only to be told that even though you've paid vast sums for the exclusive rights to use Middle-earth content the copyright isn't protected, and there are in fact a plethora of amateur projects all using it without having paid a penny. As I said before, I'm no copyright lawyer, but I think any such managing director would, to put it mildly, be severely pissed off, and expect either that the copyright restrictions are enforced - or expect to pay quite a bit less for non-exclusive rights. So you already have a potential commercial implication.

Then - and I want to stress again that we have not been threatened with legal action - getting money out of the people you sue isn't always the only reason for a lawsuit. Another reason might be to establish a legal precedent, or to create a deterrent. Look at lawsuits filed against people downloading music illegally - did anyone think, a few years ago, that this would actually happen? Yet it is happening now - and I suspect that creating a deterrent to discourage copyright infringement is the main reason for those lawsuits, rather then obtaining financial compensation.

IMO, if anyone wanted to bring a lawsuit against a mod in breach of Tolkien copyright MEMod would be a prime candidate - we are well publicised, even so far as getting coverage in game magazines... and a high profile case is what you'd want if you wanted a lawsuit to act as a deterrent.


For an international company, pursuing a lawsuit through courts in several countries would really not be a great problem - certainly less of a problem than it would be for the members of a mod team to defend themselves against such legal action. Some of us at least can't just blithely shrug and say, 'Let them sue us!' - some of us have responsibilities... families, careers - that would suffer in case of legal action.

I don't think having 'sued for breach of copyright' on your CV would do the chances of anyone wanting to work in the games industry any good.


Apart from all that there is another factor which people conveniently seem to leave out of this discussion, and that is a question of ethics. How can we, the people who were creating MEMod, expect that our intellectual property rights are respected if we do not respect the rights of others?

"even though you've paid vast sums for the exclusive rights to use Middle-earth content the copyright isn't protected, and there are in fact a plethora of amateur projects all using it without having paid a penny."

well but dont forget that those who pay will earn too..
anyway
lets close that topic..everyone can have his/her opinion but that wont bring back memod..

sorry atti, just one last point






correct, the same is true for this post.



i agree with atti there, mod teams dont make any money with their creations, at least not directly. this is the point that makes the illegality of this matter absolutely ridiculous.


i get your point, though i dont think its a good example. i dont agree with a lot of things record companies do but taking music and listening to it for free is something else than creating sth new yourself while being inspired by copyrighted material and again making no money because of it. if mod teams would be sued, then by the same reasoning kids who make drawings of their favorite lotr characters and put these drawings on the net should also be sued. which is of course absolutely ridiculous.



yes, i agree though i must stress the IF


this is why i said before that i respect and accept your choice of not going ahead with memod (though of course with great disappointment).




the fact that there is no money being made with mods (even if theyre being used to get a foot in the door of the game industry), IMO eliminates all possibilities for the existence of a victim and makes it impossible for me to imagine the managing director getting severely pissed off. heres the way i interpret this situation:
no politician ever sat down and said: "lets make modding illegal!!"
memod was not 100% legal due to the fact that laws governing intellectual property are very abstract, strict and fundamentally crude.

just because some clause that was initially created to serve a different purpose makes it illegal to mod, using copyrighted material in the process, does not justify prosecution in my mind. so i still stand to my assumption that even though there is such an abundance of mods created with copyrighted material, none of them will face legal repercussions. but i still understand that there is a risk and that you were quite understandably not prepared to take it.




ps

ok, what i meant was sth like this: team member A living in the netherlands (just an example) lays back and smokes a spliff because according to local jurisdiction, making a mod is not counted as a copyright infringement, while team member B living in america is sentenced to death by the electric chair along with all the incriminated stoners as a "deterrent". or are they all prosecuted according to international law?

I don't think they would sue each member individually. Rather, as a group, or, maybe the Project Leaders.



Say what you want, but nonetheless, it's still illegal. And therefore, legal action can be taken. Plus, Tolkien Estate [or is it Enterprise?] has proven to be one of the most vicious protectors of their property - even going so far, I believe, as shutting down a fan's website because it had a Middle Earth map on it.



The fact that they're not making money on this is not the issue. It's still illegal - if you go and take a CD from a store just to listen to it [and not sell it], it's still stealing, right?

And if you make your own "stuff" that's based off of copyrighted materials, it's still illegal without the consent of the holder(s). It's like plagerism - you can paraphrase what was said, or put it in your own words, but you'll still be plagerising the materials.



The modding itself is not illegal. Using copyrighted materials is. It's like with music - buying blank CDs is not illegal; burning CDs is not illegal; rather, burning copyrighted material on to CDs is illegal.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm afraid that you seem to miss the point completely, SirVivealot - it's not the fact that MEMod isn't going to make any money or even that it might influence the profit of the company wishing to buy the copyright, it's that the copyright itself loses value if it is no longer exclusive and protected.


I get the impression of a certain naivete and ignorance of business practice from your post - I do apologize if I am mistaken, but sadly such things as 'fairness' don't come into this. Even if you don't stand to profit from a legal infringement what you're doing is still illegal.
I also note that you conveniently forgot to address my last point about the ethics involved.


Now, if you do respect our decision, why do you keep on going on about it, and questioning it - which is precisely what your posts are doing? There was absolutely nothing to be gained from your first post, save that which you yourself stated you didn't want - the re-kindling of old discussions.

Since however it seems that the only thing that will stop this 'rekindling of old discussions' in the presence of people who seem determined to do precisely that while claiming otherwise is locking this thread, I shall do so.


As Atti said, it will not bring back MEMod.