Full Version: Middle Earth Mod For Morrowind
I'd pay for this, easily.
We all would pay for it, but it probably won't happen.
the end of the world is nigh 
i still have those mp3 tracks Daerk made several months ago, will keep them as a reminder of what might have been
i still have those mp3 tracks Daerk made several months ago, will keep them as a reminder of what might have been
I like that idea a lot Gearmeas. It could work.
Okay, so lets see our options (I know that none of them will probably work, buy hey! What do we have to lose? Nothing! What do we have to win? Everything!!!)
We could
One. Release mod and upon being sued, apologize and officially cease production. (hehe, already out)
Two. Get everyone to put at least a tiny bit of work into the mod and get copies of it. Private mods like this can not be prosecuted.
Three. Change the names of SOME of the NPC's and placenames, make them funny, a "Parody". Get an independent modder to introduce another, completely separate mod that changes everything back. (Help him out, if you need to make drastic changes to avoid copyright protection send him the 'real' files so the 'final' game is identical to the one you would release if the copyright stuff didn't exist. I think we could live with two downloads.) This person should be completely anonymous, I volunteer, of course.
Four. Smaller mods do not attract attention, slice MeMod to pieces and release them separately, under different names. (Like, Land in one, weapons in another. . .) This way there would be no single group or person to pin the blame on. Of course, when all separate files are placed together. . .
Five. Do what Gerameas said, its a good idea.
Six. Get someone who doesn't care about being sued to release mod. (Hey! I'll bet there is SOMEONE.) Pretend it was supposed to be a private mod.
Seven. Finish mod, accidentally leak a copy or so. . .
I think at least ONE of these idea's should work. I refuse to believe that there is no way around it.
Okay, so lets see our options (I know that none of them will probably work, buy hey! What do we have to lose? Nothing! What do we have to win? Everything!!!)
We could
One. Release mod and upon being sued, apologize and officially cease production. (hehe, already out)
Two. Get everyone to put at least a tiny bit of work into the mod and get copies of it. Private mods like this can not be prosecuted.
Three. Change the names of SOME of the NPC's and placenames, make them funny, a "Parody". Get an independent modder to introduce another, completely separate mod that changes everything back. (Help him out, if you need to make drastic changes to avoid copyright protection send him the 'real' files so the 'final' game is identical to the one you would release if the copyright stuff didn't exist. I think we could live with two downloads.) This person should be completely anonymous, I volunteer, of course.
Four. Smaller mods do not attract attention, slice MeMod to pieces and release them separately, under different names. (Like, Land in one, weapons in another. . .) This way there would be no single group or person to pin the blame on. Of course, when all separate files are placed together. . .
Five. Do what Gerameas said, its a good idea.
Six. Get someone who doesn't care about being sued to release mod. (Hey! I'll bet there is SOMEONE.) Pretend it was supposed to be a private mod.
Seven. Finish mod, accidentally leak a copy or so. . .
I think at least ONE of these idea's should work. I refuse to believe that there is no way around it.
| QUOTE |
| think at least ONE of these idea's should work. I refuse to believe that there is no way around it. |
i really agree with that from my heart..
but i am young.. full of revolt, and dunno a lot of things..
Suz does what he thinks is the best to do..(however i still hope he got some tricks up his sleeve
..)
You kno Geremeas's idea isn't that bad if it would work 
| QUOTE (Kahenraz @ Sep 20 2004, 06:39 AM) |
| /me shoves Marxist-Bastard into the limelight. He always did like to be the center of attention.. |
*Chops off Marxist-Bastards head, and starts rolling around in the blood*
"REVENGE!"
*Suddenly stops and looks around*
"This cannot have been a one-man-thing! I need more blood!"
*Goes off on a crazed hunt to find the guilty*
Okay, I'm not gonna take this thread more off-topic, since a nice little dialogue has started here...
| QUOTE (_Atti_ @ Sep 20 2004, 08:10 PM) |
| Suz does what he thinks is the best to do..(however i still hope he got some tricks up his sleeve |
I do too... And seeing as people find hope and comfort in these latest ideas, I certainly hope it inspires everyone to try... Cause I don't want this to be over! If only I were a rich lawyer. Then I could either find a hole in the law, or pay for the whole damned thing myself! The solution must be out there... Doesn't anybody have rich daddy?
I don't like how everyone is speculating how this can still work. I'm just as shaken up about this as everyone, but be realistic and don't start dishing out hope to people who could easily be influenced to what others might have to say. The future of this project is uncertain at best, that's all we know and for the time being people just need to accept it. There's no doubt in my mind the team is trying to figure out ways around this that can have the project continue. The constant streaming of what if's just adds more frustration to an already awful situation.
| QUOTE |
| Let me first say that I am no lawyer and that most likely this way out has already been discarded by the Devs, but let me write it out anyway ... (what's have I got tolose?) 1) MEMod team contacts Vivendi (EA, or whoever would own the right for this kind of game) and "sells" them the project of MEMod,. 2) Vivendi buys a license from Bethesda to use the TESIII game engine (I think such sales have been done in the past, particularly with all those Halflife-style games (sorry no expert there either, couldn't quote)) 3) MEMod team finishes developing MEMod which is then sold by Vivendi as a stand-alone game. Why I think everyone wins? Vivendi - gets to release a good game, potentially very profitable, with very low development costs. MEMod Devs - complete their dream, and most likely make some money out of it. Bethesda - they make money out of a an old game engine which, by the time the game is released, will have been replaced by a brand new one (TESIV). Alright, I admit it might require a lot of persuasion and numerous sales pitches, but why not giving it a shot? Whatever happens, thanks anyway for all the wonderful work you've done! ... from a newcomer that couldn't have joined at a worse time! |
I am no lawyer either... under no circumstances will he change the names of people or places, this mod was a tribute to Tolkien and by changing the names we would not be accomplishing our goals. Also, MEMod with all of the realism that would make it like a real word, turns off the average gamer... A game company would not want to buy MEMod and the shitty morrowind engine as it would only appeal to a small percent of people without being changed, which we would not accept. I personally would rather see it die then have flameball casting dwarves added.
Im newly registered here so hello all!
Ive been monitoring MEMod's progress for a while now and obviously am very saddened by the recent news. Anything I say im sure has already been said, but I say you might aswell complete the project if only for self satisfaction. You never know, in a couple of years when the game engine is blown away by newer ones (TESIV etc) an agreement may be made.
The Russian thing is interesting though, there is a Russian site where I download emulators and ROM's from which is completely illegal but cant be touched...all other ROM sites get shut down or are private and charge. Maybe there's a possibility there? Although someone would have to be able to translate.
Apologies for another 'whatif?'
Ive been monitoring MEMod's progress for a while now and obviously am very saddened by the recent news. Anything I say im sure has already been said, but I say you might aswell complete the project if only for self satisfaction. You never know, in a couple of years when the game engine is blown away by newer ones (TESIV etc) an agreement may be made.
The Russian thing is interesting though, there is a Russian site where I download emulators and ROM's from which is completely illegal but cant be touched...all other ROM sites get shut down or are private and charge. Maybe there's a possibility there? Although someone would have to be able to translate.
Apologies for another 'whatif?'
i won't pretend that i was as excited about this project as everyone else, seeing as i haven't followed it along its long stages of production. but i will say im sorry to the guys who missed out on their opportunity.
and i want to say that it's a credit to Suzerain and all the other Devs and Teamsters who were able to let go so well, and not try to kick up a storm. good on you guys
and i want to say that it's a credit to Suzerain and all the other Devs and Teamsters who were able to let go so well, and not try to kick up a storm. good on you guys
| QUOTE (thanateros @ Sep 20 2004, 08:46 PM) |
| I don't like how everyone is speculating how this can still work. I'm just as shaken up about this as everyone, but be realistic and don't start dishing out hope to people who could easily be influenced to what others might have to say. The future of this project is uncertain at best, that's all we know and for the time being people just need to accept it. There's no doubt in my mind the team is trying to figure out ways around this that can have the project continue. The constant streaming of what if's just adds more frustration to an already awful situation. |
I DO like that everyone is trying to find a solution! This just confirms how strongly many people feel about the mod! And if it gives me hope... So what? I know the situation is bad and that false hope is dangerous, but at this moment I'm willing to risk that. MEMod isn't dead until we let it die. And the only thing discussing possible solutions can bring, is a solution! At worst this can only delay death, at best it can restore it to life! Of course the devs have done everything they can to solve this situation, but isn't there a small chance that they might have missed something? As far as my knowledge goes the devs are not all-knowing, and just maybe one of the fans knows a way around this problem. We should all pitch in and help the team in realising their dream, and ours. And though I don't know the depth of the situation, or who the team would be 'insulting' if they released the mod, I still believe we should try to come up with something. I, personally, don't believe that this is a question of lost income for either Vivendi or EA, or anyone else for that matter. I believe it to simply be that the release of this mod could offend someone and hence lead to law-suit. That's a risk noone wants the devs to make... Hmm, maybe just one of them could sacrifice himself... Either way we, the fans, could make a list with all or names and nationalities for the devs to use as backup to gain sympathy. With this list as proof of widespread international love for Tolkien's work maybe they could reach an agreement with 'someone'... No matter what, this list could only enhance the devs' case. If you are interested, devs, why not create an e-mail adress where people could send their names and nationalities? Even if you never get to use it, it might serve as a last show of support for your work. I'm willing to do everything I, as a fan, can! If needed I could even volunteer to coordinate such a list, though I'm sure other would be better suited!
Everyone; grab an oar and row as hell!
You mentioned seven possibilities. Here's number eight.
Forget about the Tolkien Middle Earth Mod for Morrowind, if possibilities one to seven fail, which is very likely, as Tolkien is a gold mine for who has the copyrights, and people tend to like money more than spirit, ideals and so on.
Give up the Tolkien Middle Earth Mod. But don't give up the Middle Earth Mod.
Doesn't that make sense? I'll explain. Some devs have probably already thought about it, and most of you probably know that Middle Earth isn't actually an invention of J.R.R. Tolkien, but is rather his re-elaboration of the Norse Midgard (Old Norse Miđgarđr, Old English Middangeard, guess what it means? You're right, Middle Earth.)
Now, his reelaboration of Middle Earth is his own invention, and as such, it is copyright. But there's no way he can copyright the original Middle Earth - you could still call this the Middle-Earth mod, technically. Of course, it won't be the Middle Earth you were looking for. You'd also have to change the landmass, as Tolkien's original landmass is also copyright. But you'd still save a lot of models, a lot of textures, a lot of NPCs (no, the dwarf Gloin is NOT Tolkien's invention - go look on Snorri Sturluson's Edda and check up a list of dwarven names - you will be surprised)...
... But most of all, if you decide to make a new "Middle Earth" mod, it will still save a lot of Tolkien spirit, as Tolkien drew a lot of his ideas from this mithology. Most of the races would be there, albeit in different forms: dwarves, men, giants, trolls, elfs, all of them existed in Norse Mythology. Even Ents are a distortion of the iotnar (singular iotunn, which became eotenas and eventually entas in Old English. The only race you wouldn't be able to use would be hobbits, apparently an original creation of Tolkien.
As for the stories Tolkien narrated - they are, of course, copyright. But still, they are based on literary tòpoi (commonplaces) and are, as such, not really that "original".
This is, of course, just a humble suggestion. But if, after the mourning for that beautiful dream that has been the Middle Earth mod, you mean to go on working about something, this would be the closest thing to the Tolkien spirit that you have.
And last but not least... it'd let you salvage some of the work you've already done
Forget about the Tolkien Middle Earth Mod for Morrowind, if possibilities one to seven fail, which is very likely, as Tolkien is a gold mine for who has the copyrights, and people tend to like money more than spirit, ideals and so on.
Give up the Tolkien Middle Earth Mod. But don't give up the Middle Earth Mod.
Doesn't that make sense? I'll explain. Some devs have probably already thought about it, and most of you probably know that Middle Earth isn't actually an invention of J.R.R. Tolkien, but is rather his re-elaboration of the Norse Midgard (Old Norse Miđgarđr, Old English Middangeard, guess what it means? You're right, Middle Earth.)
Now, his reelaboration of Middle Earth is his own invention, and as such, it is copyright. But there's no way he can copyright the original Middle Earth - you could still call this the Middle-Earth mod, technically. Of course, it won't be the Middle Earth you were looking for. You'd also have to change the landmass, as Tolkien's original landmass is also copyright. But you'd still save a lot of models, a lot of textures, a lot of NPCs (no, the dwarf Gloin is NOT Tolkien's invention - go look on Snorri Sturluson's Edda and check up a list of dwarven names - you will be surprised)...
... But most of all, if you decide to make a new "Middle Earth" mod, it will still save a lot of Tolkien spirit, as Tolkien drew a lot of his ideas from this mithology. Most of the races would be there, albeit in different forms: dwarves, men, giants, trolls, elfs, all of them existed in Norse Mythology. Even Ents are a distortion of the iotnar (singular iotunn, which became eotenas and eventually entas in Old English. The only race you wouldn't be able to use would be hobbits, apparently an original creation of Tolkien.
As for the stories Tolkien narrated - they are, of course, copyright. But still, they are based on literary tòpoi (commonplaces) and are, as such, not really that "original".
This is, of course, just a humble suggestion. But if, after the mourning for that beautiful dream that has been the Middle Earth mod, you mean to go on working about something, this would be the closest thing to the Tolkien spirit that you have.
And last but not least... it'd let you salvage some of the work you've already done
Thats the spirit!
| QUOTE |
| 7 Stages of Grief There are 7 stages of grief when dealing with death of loved ones. The grieving process is essential and so is the knowlege that you may go through all of these stages or only just a few. The ultimate goal is to reach acceptance and recovery. The stages are as follows: denial, anger, guilt, depression, forgiveness acceptance, and recovery. You may go back and forth from one stage to another. The orders of the stages are insignificant, what's important is closure and understanding. The major point to remember is that you have all the tools you need to survive, you are never alone and not only will you will survive the loss, you will be wiser and stronger for having gone through it. |
This is so not cool. I have never even come close to trying to make something of this scale so I honestly have no idea what is being felt. But I can see the stages of peoples feelings as I read the posts. Disbeleive, saddness, anger, then hopless desperate attempts to find ways around it.
I have known of this mod for some time, and while I ahven't followed it's progress, I have been very expectant. This is possiably the greatest blow I've ever felt when it comes to computers, or electonics of anykind. As I said I haven't followed it so I can't see the personalities of those wokring on the issue but I'm sure what they are reporting is that absolute truth, how ever hopeless.
Yet dispite this beleif, I can't help but disbeleive. As I read this 9 page thread I would come up wiht ideas or see other peopels ideas and go it would work, only to see them shot down. And finally I came to one idea, that i'm sure is flawed but perhaps not.
EA games perduced Battlefield 1942 and soon after a group of modders released Desert Combat as a non-profit add-on. As time passed Desert Combat grew very well known and resantly EA games HIRED the makers of Desert Combat to release their 'official' version of the game, but it will ahve few, if any changes from the non-profit add-on.
It is a different situation I know, there are copyrights involved, wher there weren't in teh situation above. And It isn't EA games that would be dealt wiht but IT is a possiblity.
You go to whom ever hold the copyrights and say, we would like to offer our services to you. If provided with the nessicary porgrams and engines we will make this game for you to sell. Simply ask for a perpotionally small amount of money.
Granted you wouldn't be useing the TES editor so much of what you've done would need editing, but the core of your wokrs would be saved. I think.
I'm sure thyis is all for not but I can't help but hope.... Thank you all, for a dream that may never be....
I have known of this mod for some time, and while I ahven't followed it's progress, I have been very expectant. This is possiably the greatest blow I've ever felt when it comes to computers, or electonics of anykind. As I said I haven't followed it so I can't see the personalities of those wokring on the issue but I'm sure what they are reporting is that absolute truth, how ever hopeless.
Yet dispite this beleif, I can't help but disbeleive. As I read this 9 page thread I would come up wiht ideas or see other peopels ideas and go it would work, only to see them shot down. And finally I came to one idea, that i'm sure is flawed but perhaps not.
EA games perduced Battlefield 1942 and soon after a group of modders released Desert Combat as a non-profit add-on. As time passed Desert Combat grew very well known and resantly EA games HIRED the makers of Desert Combat to release their 'official' version of the game, but it will ahve few, if any changes from the non-profit add-on.
It is a different situation I know, there are copyrights involved, wher there weren't in teh situation above. And It isn't EA games that would be dealt wiht but IT is a possiblity.
You go to whom ever hold the copyrights and say, we would like to offer our services to you. If provided with the nessicary porgrams and engines we will make this game for you to sell. Simply ask for a perpotionally small amount of money.
Granted you wouldn't be useing the TES editor so much of what you've done would need editing, but the core of your wokrs would be saved. I think.
I'm sure thyis is all for not but I can't help but hope.... Thank you all, for a dream that may never be....
Nice job Acoran, it is as if you were reading my mind.
This idea, however desperate it may seem, might actually work.
What if you were to give all your work and explain your situation to Bethesda. You could tell Bethesda that all you have a game that is over 50% complete and all they'd have to do is purchase the rights to create a game based on Tolkien's books from Vivendi/Tolkien estate/EA/whoever. You would then be able to proceed completing the mod without worrying about legal issues as that would be the job of Bethesda's lawyers, you could alter the engine as you pleased, you'd be guaranteed jobs in the games industry, and you'd most likely receive funding sufficient to speed up the production of the mod/game. Bethesda could then sell the Middle-Earth Game for PC and maybe even the consoles.
Please do not dismiss this as the ramblings of some kid in denial and consider this as an option.
This idea, however desperate it may seem, might actually work.
What if you were to give all your work and explain your situation to Bethesda. You could tell Bethesda that all you have a game that is over 50% complete and all they'd have to do is purchase the rights to create a game based on Tolkien's books from Vivendi/Tolkien estate/EA/whoever. You would then be able to proceed completing the mod without worrying about legal issues as that would be the job of Bethesda's lawyers, you could alter the engine as you pleased, you'd be guaranteed jobs in the games industry, and you'd most likely receive funding sufficient to speed up the production of the mod/game. Bethesda could then sell the Middle-Earth Game for PC and maybe even the consoles.
Please do not dismiss this as the ramblings of some kid in denial and consider this as an option.
| QUOTE (Kethruch @ Sep 20 2004, 03:25 AM) |
| What you're all missing in trying to find a way around it is that to do anything to try to skirt the rules opens all of the Devs and those who materially helped with the development to possible personal liability issues. There is a reason why there are not lots of knock offs of stuff like this around by people trying to skirt the laws - breaking the copyright law can be very expensive... The Tolkien estate has always had a tight hold on the licensing of anything bearing the name "Middle Earth", "LoTR", "The Hobbit" and many other properties. This is THEIR legacy to him. They are not money-grubbers. If they were, they would be shopping the licenses everywhere to people to get money. In a lawsuit against the MeMod, Dark0ne could be forced to turn over any information (such as e-mail addresses, etc) on any of the people who worked on it, so you can't hide behind the thought that 'no one knows me - they only know Kethruch'). There's no confidentiality implied in getting on a site like this. Going to Bethesda proabably won't do much - it is EA (or a division thereof) that holds the licenses to use the Middle Earth name and location for games. They are currently putting out a series of games on their own, and I rather doubt they would entertain putting out something that would compete with what they are developing themselves. I am sad that this is over, though there has been an incredible talent base built that perhaps should look at something else. The thing is, one of the things that brought this talent together was a love of Tolkien, and we cannot be sure that all of those involved would be as passionate about a different project. If anyone knows that any of the facts as I believe them to be in the above are untrue, please let me know. |
The Tolkien Estate has not owned rights to Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit for decades.
The Professor sold those rights while he was still alive, and he passed away in 1973.
The Tolkien Estate has NO SAY what so ever in 'who does what' with this work.
Tolkien Enterprises (Saul Zaentz) http://www.tolkien-ent.com/licensing.html (the licensing quiry link) owns them.
The salient point to find out is whether or not Turbine has EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS from TOLKIEN ENTERPRISES to produce gaming works based on the books.
If they do, then this is all moot.
If they do not, then a license is still negotiable.
It is as simple as that.
How much are you willing to pay for this?
| QUOTE |
| Also, MEMod with all of the realism that would make it like a real word, turns off the average gamer... A game company would not want to buy MEMod and the shitty morrowind engine as it would only appeal to a small percent of people without being changed, which we would not accept. I personally would rather see it die then have flameball casting dwarves added. |
First of all, I hate insisting, I am really not that kind of person, but the more I think about it the more I think this is doable.
I agree MEMod couldn't be sold as a stand-alone game to the masses, but it definitely has its own niche market.
So, let's say the owner of ME rights (let's assume it's Vivendi) "buys" the rights of the work of the MEMod team (very cheap, possibly even for free). Producing the game will be really cheap, if not free, especially if the MEMod Devs - which are currently working for free - would settle for a royalty (thus if no profit is made, or something goes wrong, Vivendi doesn't lose a penny). I also imagine the cost of buying the ageing game engine from Bethesda shouldn't be prohibitive (particularly if another royalty agreement can be arranged).
So what other costs would Vivendi have? Distribution? As this is obviously a niche product, the game would not be mass distributed (ie. bought in shops) but would be purchased exclusively online & downloaded from a website (sort of like what they are doing with the presale of Half-life 2), so that's another cost gone....
Not having a huge market for it, and not being a brand-new flashy graphics game, they could slash the price a bit too, say, £10 ($15) per copy. I really think for that amount and with all its realism promises, there will be plenty of RPGers & Tolkienites world-wide willing to purchase the game (particularly if properly advertised in specialised RPGers websites/magazines).
And if of the £10, say, 2 go as a royalty to Bethesda, 0.5-1 to the modders, and 1-2 in other costs (advertising, maintenance, etc...) then Vivendi would still have a pretty neat £4-5 profit! I don't see why they shouldn't at least think about it...
I've done a few business case studies before, and I know that this analysis is VERY VERY crude and that it would require a MUCH deeper look into (with real figures I can only imagine), but I really do think that MEMod could be marketable (unless there is something very obvious I don't see).
Alright... sorry guys if I went on for so much, don't want to be pedantic (even though I probably sounded like it...
). But being a Tolkien fan since the age of 10, I would really love this mod to come to life, and if I thought one long post might help... well then I just had to write it!
As I understand it - Permission to relese the Mod has been requested and refused. I don't think it was refused on financial grounds, but I could be wrong.
nope, you're perfectly correct, Mike.
the Memod was not refused on any financial grounds. not a penny was demanded or mentioned with regards the Mod.
the memod was in conflict with the rights of distribution of the intellectual property, with regard to owners of the rights.
Tolkien Estate was not unwilling to have MeMod released. No lawyers had begun threatening us. No demands of money were made. "the machine" was not screwing over "the little guy". MeMod closed because lacking the right to the use of content meant action could be taken against the team and dev members were it released.
I have no intention to send the MeMod underground and not respect the rights of the companies who have paid for the right to use the material. I am not waging an unwinnable way against the perceived faceless "enemy" of corporations that members seem to believe is the memod's right. To do so would be hypocracy given the absolute importance I have placed on each and every member of the team having the full right to their own intellectual properties. I will not accept one rule for members of my team and gnore it with regard to the holders of such rights.
To do so would undermine both my personal and professional ethics and integrity. I will not accept such an action.
MeMod cannot be sold as a for-profit concern. Quite aside from the blatant fact that such an action would be in violation of the EULA which each and every one of us has agreed to in the installation of the Morrowind TES Construction Set, the lisencing would require not only the rights for the third-party use of, in order, the Netimmerse Engine, and Bethdesa Softwork's IP, but would then also require the lisencing for the works of Tolkien.
three differnt set of lisences, for a product likely to sell in marginal quantities to a niche market.
Not plausible in the slightest. Each member of the team as probably dreamt of the possibility of seeing MeMod at no1 in the sales charts, and receiving a fat cheque. it's not going to happen. Business Reality means that such a project would never get off the ground. In addition, the figures suggested by Tor Anders above, as an idea, are, simply, a pipe dream that bear no relation to reality whatsoever...
the Memod was not refused on any financial grounds. not a penny was demanded or mentioned with regards the Mod.
the memod was in conflict with the rights of distribution of the intellectual property, with regard to owners of the rights.
Tolkien Estate was not unwilling to have MeMod released. No lawyers had begun threatening us. No demands of money were made. "the machine" was not screwing over "the little guy". MeMod closed because lacking the right to the use of content meant action could be taken against the team and dev members were it released.
I have no intention to send the MeMod underground and not respect the rights of the companies who have paid for the right to use the material. I am not waging an unwinnable way against the perceived faceless "enemy" of corporations that members seem to believe is the memod's right. To do so would be hypocracy given the absolute importance I have placed on each and every member of the team having the full right to their own intellectual properties. I will not accept one rule for members of my team and gnore it with regard to the holders of such rights.
To do so would undermine both my personal and professional ethics and integrity. I will not accept such an action.
MeMod cannot be sold as a for-profit concern. Quite aside from the blatant fact that such an action would be in violation of the EULA which each and every one of us has agreed to in the installation of the Morrowind TES Construction Set, the lisencing would require not only the rights for the third-party use of, in order, the Netimmerse Engine, and Bethdesa Softwork's IP, but would then also require the lisencing for the works of Tolkien.
three differnt set of lisences, for a product likely to sell in marginal quantities to a niche market.
Not plausible in the slightest. Each member of the team as probably dreamt of the possibility of seeing MeMod at no1 in the sales charts, and receiving a fat cheque. it's not going to happen. Business Reality means that such a project would never get off the ground. In addition, the figures suggested by Tor Anders above, as an idea, are, simply, a pipe dream that bear no relation to reality whatsoever...
| QUOTE |
| And if of the £10, say, 2 go as a royalty to Bethesda, 0.5-1 to the modders, and 1-2 in other costs (advertising, maintenance, etc...) then Vivendi would still have a pretty neat £4-5 profit! I don't see why they shouldn't at least think about it... |
The reality of such a market would be closer to: £10 of sale: £5 to the retailer, £3 to the distributing company, £1.50 to royalties, £0.48 for distribution, legal costs, and administration, and finally £0.02 to the memod teams... split 80 ways between all members, even assuming we can fairly split the profit ignoring who's done 10,000 peices, and another member's done 3.
Not practical. not even worth a companies effort to do such.
And I'm not even going to bother to type my utter disgust at the idea of distributing memod on some sort of illegal russian underground server.
Please. give up on the rediculous plans.
Suzerain.
I wonder, couldn't you finish the mod yourself, suze, you and the team? And then just play it yourself. At least you could try the MEMod and you surely are the ones who have the biggest right to it!
Hell, I'm not saying that I suddenly lost the desire to play through my dream. But if I can't play it, I can't play it, but that shouldn't mean that you guys at the team shouldn't be allowed to play through the mod you have worked so hard on!
EDIT: oh and furthermore, am I the only one who sees the prospect of what Maguissar is proposing? I personally think it's a brilliant idea!
pharzon..
Hell, I'm not saying that I suddenly lost the desire to play through my dream. But if I can't play it, I can't play it, but that shouldn't mean that you guys at the team shouldn't be allowed to play through the mod you have worked so hard on!
EDIT: oh and furthermore, am I the only one who sees the prospect of what Maguissar is proposing? I personally think it's a brilliant idea!
pharzon..
Suzerain,
Permission has been requested/refused by whom--Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate, or some third controlling group like New Line?
And, aside from the lack of permission, was it the same group that told you that you could be sued, or someone else?
But, you have stated that you were not threatened by anyone with a lawsuit, just that it's a possibility.
So, if a lawyer told you that you have an extrememely strong case, and that someone would be crazy to try to sue you for a free plug-in since your case was so strong, would you still stop the MEMOD?
Just from what I've read, you have one of those "tiny chance of risk, but serious consequences if you fail" scenarios. After all, it's your (all the modders') money that a suit would take, not all these people who just want to play the MEMOD. Maybe you cannot afford the consequences of the risk, regardless of how small the chance? Or, maybe you were thinking that even if you won the case that the court cost would be high enough to deter you?
But, I think that if it were my ass on the line, and a (quality) lawyer assured me that I had a solid defense, and that it would be maddness to actually take me to court, that I would proceed with the MEMOD.
Now, to put my ass on the line--If sole responsibility for the project could be transferred to only one person (protecting all others from a suit), and if the lawyer said the above to me, I would be willing to take that chance. Or, maybe one of you modders in the project already would instead of a mere "outsider"?
Permission has been requested/refused by whom--Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate, or some third controlling group like New Line?
And, aside from the lack of permission, was it the same group that told you that you could be sued, or someone else?
But, you have stated that you were not threatened by anyone with a lawsuit, just that it's a possibility.
So, if a lawyer told you that you have an extrememely strong case, and that someone would be crazy to try to sue you for a free plug-in since your case was so strong, would you still stop the MEMOD?
Just from what I've read, you have one of those "tiny chance of risk, but serious consequences if you fail" scenarios. After all, it's your (all the modders') money that a suit would take, not all these people who just want to play the MEMOD. Maybe you cannot afford the consequences of the risk, regardless of how small the chance? Or, maybe you were thinking that even if you won the case that the court cost would be high enough to deter you?
But, I think that if it were my ass on the line, and a (quality) lawyer assured me that I had a solid defense, and that it would be maddness to actually take me to court, that I would proceed with the MEMOD.
Now, to put my ass on the line--If sole responsibility for the project could be transferred to only one person (protecting all others from a suit), and if the lawyer said the above to me, I would be willing to take that chance. Or, maybe one of you modders in the project already would instead of a mere "outsider"?
| QUOTE (pharzon @ Sep 21 2004, 01:31 PM) |
| Hell, I'm not saying that I suddenly lost the desire to play through my dream. But if I can't play it, I can't play it, but that shouldn't mean that you guys at the team shouldn't be allowed to play through the mod you have worked so hard on! |
Nah.
We made this mod for you.
not us.
I suspect I'd never have played memod myself. I knew how the plots would come out after all - think of it as being a murder novel you wrote. is there any fun reading all the way to the very last page to dicover the killer... when you remember writing it the first time.
this was your mod, and always was. the devs adn tem were just the ones making it for you. our reward was being able to say "we made that".
S
| QUOTE |
| EDIT: oh and furthermore, am I the only one who sees the prospect of what Maguissar is proposing? I personally think it's a brilliant idea! |
I saw it - its fantastic plan, and probably not far off the mark in terms of what direction the team may go in. Most currently developed areas of the MeMod would be wholly applicable to such a project, I reckon.
And Domhnall, the permission was sourced through the owners of the rights; an american company that bought them about 40 years ago.
Same company New Line and the likes required to get permissions from.
I was given the initial warning of the risk of copyright law infringment by the solicitors to the tolkien estate, when they gave me the company contact details. their assistance meant that was able to do most of the communication I was struggling with.
When discussions resulted in the probability of no permission, I received independant consultation on the matter to ensure that I was not given any biased view.
I have no clue if there was a "tiny" chance of action against us if we continued or a "definate" chance. the combination of the violation of the rights which they are a holder of, and the possibility of action against any and all mmbrs means that as the lead, it was my responsibility to cease such danger to the team.
I will not have any scapegoats, or risk to team members welfare and future employment possibilities.
Now, please.
can we give up on the amateur law dreams, people?
MeMod was in the wrong.
The Dream died. it's time to wake and get on with life.
s
Same company New Line and the likes required to get permissions from.
I was given the initial warning of the risk of copyright law infringment by the solicitors to the tolkien estate, when they gave me the company contact details. their assistance meant that was able to do most of the communication I was struggling with.
When discussions resulted in the probability of no permission, I received independant consultation on the matter to ensure that I was not given any biased view.
I have no clue if there was a "tiny" chance of action against us if we continued or a "definate" chance. the combination of the violation of the rights which they are a holder of, and the possibility of action against any and all mmbrs means that as the lead, it was my responsibility to cease such danger to the team.
I will not have any scapegoats, or risk to team members welfare and future employment possibilities.
Now, please.
can we give up on the amateur law dreams, people?
MeMod was in the wrong.
The Dream died. it's time to wake and get on with life.
s
I see.
But, if I am willing to be the "scapegoat" (under those conditions) then what has anyone else got to lose? I agree that no one else should be put in harm's way if they are not ready. But, if I decided to take the risk, why would you reject it?
But, if I am willing to be the "scapegoat" (under those conditions) then what has anyone else got to lose? I agree that no one else should be put in harm's way if they are not ready. But, if I decided to take the risk, why would you reject it?
Because that is a result that is not acceptable.
F*ck it. I'd happily consume class A drugs (past tense), drink hallucinogenic absinthe, have threesomes with two girls (or worse), end up in bed with women who're barely legal, commit music piracy by ripping albums to mp3, or occasionally download mp3s, I'll enjoy acts of violence on a reenactment battlefield, eat veal, wear leather, or commit enough sins of the flesh to let me burn with Sodom and Gomorrah if christianity proves to be 100% correct....
but my morals do not allow me to let ANY one person take the fall and get nailed for the sake of the memod.
I will not accept that action.
F*ck it. I'd happily consume class A drugs (past tense), drink hallucinogenic absinthe, have threesomes with two girls (or worse), end up in bed with women who're barely legal, commit music piracy by ripping albums to mp3, or occasionally download mp3s, I'll enjoy acts of violence on a reenactment battlefield, eat veal, wear leather, or commit enough sins of the flesh to let me burn with Sodom and Gomorrah if christianity proves to be 100% correct....
but my morals do not allow me to let ANY one person take the fall and get nailed for the sake of the memod.
I will not accept that action.
| QUOTE (suzerain @ Sep 21 2004, 01:45 PM) |
| Nah. We made this mod for you. not us. I suspect I'd never have played memod myself. I knew how the plots would come out after all - think of it as being a murder novel you wrote. is there any fun reading all the way to the very last page to dicover the killer... when you remember writing it the first time. this was your mod, and always was. the devs adn tem were just the ones making it for you. our reward was being able to say "we made that". S |
Oh, good point! Of course it wouldn't be fun to play through a plot you created yourself.
But I really think it's cruel that you guys won't even get credit for what you've made so far, because it's never going to be released. Or can you use some of the things you've made as portfolio when trying to get a job?
Well, I really hope that some of you would try it out with the idea Maguissar came with. After all, you re-use alot of your work and it would be a fantastic world to journey as well!
pharzon..
Suzerain, keep working in the shadows, do not let down!
I´m sure that JRR had wanted everybody could enjoy his master piece in any way, beyond of the capitalist machinery.
KEEP WORKING! DO NOT LET DOWN!
I´ll be waiting with my bittorrent online
I´m sure that JRR had wanted everybody could enjoy his master piece in any way, beyond of the capitalist machinery.
KEEP WORKING! DO NOT LET DOWN!
I´ll be waiting with my bittorrent online
Domhnall,
You want to hire a lawyer and look into copyright laws go ahead...
But MEMod is dead. It isnt coming back... as Suze said wake up. We were misinformed by Daerk on the matter and cannot contact him... Even by telephone.
None of us on the team are willing to be sued and have any future in the game idustry(or other employment) risked. Were we sued they could seize all assets and we would be screwed... no.
You want to hire a lawyer and look into copyright laws go ahead...
But MEMod is dead. It isnt coming back... as Suze said wake up. We were misinformed by Daerk on the matter and cannot contact him... Even by telephone.
None of us on the team are willing to be sued and have any future in the game idustry(or other employment) risked. Were we sued they could seize all assets and we would be screwed... no.
Although I don't have a problem with new ideas, since I'm still hoping that some miracle might occur, I really don't think that we should continue with ideas like that one. Suzerain has rammed it home that he will NOT accept any kind of illegal work done.
EDIT: I'm refering to Necro_v4's post.
pharzon..
EDIT: I'm refering to Necro_v4's post.
pharzon..
Please let MEMod go with dignity.
MEMod was our recreation of Tolkien's Middle-earth - based on the places, the people, the events Tolkien described.
MEMod is no more - please try to accept that.
Let it go.
Cherish the dream - because a dream is all that is left of MEMod now.
MEMod was our recreation of Tolkien's Middle-earth - based on the places, the people, the events Tolkien described.
MEMod is no more - please try to accept that.
Let it go.
Cherish the dream - because a dream is all that is left of MEMod now.
| QUOTE (Necro_v4 @ Sep 21 2004, 02:09 PM) |
| Suzerain, keep working in the shadows, do not let down! I´m sure that JRR had wanted everybody could enjoy his master piece in any way, beyond of the capitalist machinery. KEEP WORKING! DO NOT LET DOWN! I´ll be waiting with my bittorrent online |
Will people just give up on the whole "evil machine" attitude?
The Sault Zaenetz Corporation has a legal RIGHT to the electronic Media rights.
John Ronald Ruel Tolkien willingly sold those rights to them.
If I ignore those rights in the production of memod, then I am doing no better than if I ignore the shire becasue "I don't like hobbits, let's ignore that bit"
By the closure of the Memod, we avoid the risk of legal action against us, and we respect those rights.
And above all else, I recognise those rights, because as a professional designer, my own welfare is dependant on the observation of intellectual property that I produce. and I will not break my own rules and morals to ignore another individual's PR ad rights.
Is that clear?
WHAT!
*strugles against his own feelings not to show any of the barbaric feelings he harbours at the moment*
just let me get this straight for a moment...
and another...
just need a lil more time...
ok...
I would like to thank the devs and teamsters and anyone who helped on this mod, you have worked so hard on this, and the result? NOTHING! I think all of you guys deserve a medal for this effort, i really do...
good luck to you all, i dont think i shall return to the forums to often...
Greetings,
Elwe
*strugles against his own feelings not to show any of the barbaric feelings he harbours at the moment*
just let me get this straight for a moment...
and another...
just need a lil more time...
ok...
I would like to thank the devs and teamsters and anyone who helped on this mod, you have worked so hard on this, and the result? NOTHING! I think all of you guys deserve a medal for this effort, i really do...
good luck to you all, i dont think i shall return to the forums to often...
Greetings,
Elwe
As a new member I understand I have no place in this forum's convention to really have an opinion, but I would have to say that the attitude from the dev's of MEMod (inc suz) are...understandable, but not acceptable. I understand the level of work and commitment that has gone into this (yeah I probably dont do i?) and I wanted this badly aswell but as this forum is one of free speech and discussion, I emplore the devs not to be so indignantly against rash ideas.
People have the right to come up with birdbrain schemes if they so desire and conspire as much as they wish, even if its unfounded and hypocritical.
You knew this outcome was a possibility, you should have been prepared and maybe sought the solid legal stance before this became too advanced. I know Daerk thought he had etc but things this professional should always be checked and double checked again. I dont want to rub salt into the wound and the reactionary and very clear response from devs is expected, but people will come round to the idea that MEMod is no more at some point. Its been less than a week, let people be in denial...or let them be resilient.
You really never know who's watching these boards, there may be people of influence who can help...or there may not, dont give up. Giving up is for the weak.
People have the right to come up with birdbrain schemes if they so desire and conspire as much as they wish, even if its unfounded and hypocritical.
You knew this outcome was a possibility, you should have been prepared and maybe sought the solid legal stance before this became too advanced. I know Daerk thought he had etc but things this professional should always be checked and double checked again. I dont want to rub salt into the wound and the reactionary and very clear response from devs is expected, but people will come round to the idea that MEMod is no more at some point. Its been less than a week, let people be in denial...or let them be resilient.
You really never know who's watching these boards, there may be people of influence who can help...or there may not, dont give up. Giving up is for the weak.
| QUOTE (Greystorm @ Sep 21 2004, 02:52 PM) |
| As a new member I understand I have no place in this forum's convention to really have an opinion, but I would have to say that the attitude from the dev's of MEMod (inc suz) are...understandable, but not acceptable. I understand the level of work and commitment that has gone into this (yeah I probably dont do i?) and I wanted this badly aswell but as this forum is one of free speech and discussion, I emplore the devs not to be so indignantly against rash ideas. People have the right to come up with birdbrain schemes if they so desire and conspire as much as they wish, even if its unfounded and hypocritical. |
All members are equal in the forums, unless you're a Mod, so your opinion does matter. At this point its useless to try and scheme, brainstorm, muster or use any other means to try and revive MeMod. Furthermore, people, though they have the right to, should stop posting about how they have the solution to this problem. Bluntly, the problem doesn't have a solution, people need to accept it and put their efforts into something else. There's no point to solve a math equation that doesn't exist, which is what people are trying to do.
But what does it matter? If its not going to happen its not going to happen, its not harming anyone and it gives people something to talk about. You cant stop people who were so passionate about the idea trying to rationalise this in their own way, something this popular and in terms pretty important suddenly ceases and you expect people not to behave like this? Im no anthropologist but surely this is natural. Peole will only turn against the devs and then when they announce their next project no one will be interested
a lot of the devs know the full details, and know how impractical it is.
therefore, the fact that we have slaved at this project for 2 1/2 years means we're not really too comfortable about all the ideas.
it's a bit like "our" lost child at the moment, that it really does hurt to raise the subject of pulling it back from the dead when we know that's not possible.
I hope people understand that reason for our stances.
Suz
therefore, the fact that we have slaved at this project for 2 1/2 years means we're not really too comfortable about all the ideas.
it's a bit like "our" lost child at the moment, that it really does hurt to raise the subject of pulling it back from the dead when we know that's not possible.
I hope people understand that reason for our stances.
Suz
I understand, you should be allowed to grieve.
Just never give up hope, surely that is the pure and true message of Tolkien and especially LoTR? When all hope has faded a light on the horizon may appear.
Just never give up hope, surely that is the pure and true message of Tolkien and especially LoTR? When all hope has faded a light on the horizon may appear.
I and others understand totally. I'm sure.
But as you said, 2 and half years in the making. Its that work, in 2 and a half years that people don't want to see wasted or nothing of.
I guess it’s the way the majority is feeling, it’s just that their so use to repeatedly requesting something from the team that they come out and request more things now as they usually would.
I don’t know, I just don't want to see nothing of what many have worked on for so long. I wish it were as easy as saying "share the fruits of your labour!" but with all the legal complications, geez.
But as you said, 2 and half years in the making. Its that work, in 2 and a half years that people don't want to see wasted or nothing of.
I guess it’s the way the majority is feeling, it’s just that their so use to repeatedly requesting something from the team that they come out and request more things now as they usually would.
I don’t know, I just don't want to see nothing of what many have worked on for so long. I wish it were as easy as saying "share the fruits of your labour!" but with all the legal complications, geez.
All I want to say is really my sig - hopefully, at some point, the legal problems will be worked out and the MEMod will be reborn in some form, perhaps even using a completely different game. But that is a hope, not a certainty.
For now, it is dead, defunct, gone. It shall be missed.
For now, it is dead, defunct, gone. It shall be missed.
Well said buddy.... well said.
y dont u just release it illegally, n change all ur info so they cant get to u
cuz ppl arnt gonna come to these forums n shut u down
so mabi send all the MEMOD files to some geocities site n let ppl dl it from there
this isnt that bad, in canada we hav a website where u can buy weed off them online
or just let ppl dl it then take it down so they cant do shit when they check again
cuz ppl arnt gonna come to these forums n shut u down
so mabi send all the MEMOD files to some geocities site n let ppl dl it from there
this isnt that bad, in canada we hav a website where u can buy weed off them online
or just let ppl dl it then take it down so they cant do shit when they check again
*Headbutts table*
I rest my case.
(quite aside from the fact that I have letters sent to and from the company with my name. Do people think that I write to formal companies using the name "suzerain"?)
I rest my case.
(quite aside from the fact that I have letters sent to and from the company with my name. Do people think that I write to formal companies using the name "suzerain"?)
just sue them, ill sue them for not letting them release a free game
ill get a fukin mob to protest
btw theres another site that has a MEMOD for morrowind but all the names r different, its in another language too
ill get a fukin mob to protest
btw theres another site that has a MEMOD for morrowind but all the names r different, its in another language too
Heh now that reaction is COMPLETELY understandable
y dnt u kck urself in da teeth no less
I dont know why people still post on message boards like that.
y dnt u kck urself in da teeth no less
I dont know why people still post on message boards like that.
| QUOTE (suzerain @ Sep 21 2004, 11:14 AM) |
| a lot of the devs know the full details, and know how impractical it is. therefore, the fact that we have slaved at this project for 2 1/2 years means we're not really too comfortable about all the ideas.. |
Three!
ok. three!
Dammit. where did the summer go?
seriously. it was april last time I blinked...
Suz.
Dammit. where did the summer go?
seriously. it was april last time I blinked...
Suz.
It is interesting how it applies to private distribution however. I hadn't realised that if I developed a Mod I couldn't then give it to my mates as a Crimbo present.
Oh well.
Oh well.
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