[the_stalker]

this just really bothers me, i noticed that in the books all men, and everything else on saurons side (except in the first age anyways...) are crude, barbaric, low quality and just arent very civilized sounding (again dont kill me, or flame me...) is it just me or is this a little odd? it kind of bothers me that middle earth's biggest threat is a bunch of low level ill equipped orcs and wild men and guys with beards and axes. they just dont sound like much of a super powered threat, im not bashing jjr or the books but it just doesnt seem like the forces of darkness is not really anything that could have stood a chance against gondor and rohan alone in the third age :\ (a apologize for speaking me mind but i need to compare this also :] ) in the second punic war (the war for middle earth if you please) the carthages were like super powers, so was the romans, even though hannibals 26,000 troops annihilated romes 120,000 some what army pretty much the same as the forces of morder, only better, well equipped not very well led but atleast a little better and arent a bunch of wild men :angry2: it just bothers me that all of the allies of sauron are plain crude, just because there on the side of evil, how many times have you heard of the forces of evil being crude (not CRUEL, crude) wouldnt it bother you if all the good guys were mean to everyone but the bad guys are nice and give things away? it is like this in a twisted way, i doubt the romans were crude and badly equipped (neither for the carthaginians but i think both of them were pretty bad civilizations, still they were well equipped and highly cultural and all that.) i want to hear of some powerful allie of sauron who had well made armor and weapons and were well organized and led, it just feels like it is in black and white, if your serving evil you will be destroyed completely, that isnt really fair in any shape or size, and if you serve good your good, completely no matter... not no matter what but in most things (i dont want this because the books are finished, i dont want it to actually be changed in any way this is just my opinion is all.) (and not a starwars thing where the bad guys cant lose but for some stupid reason they lose anyways) again sorry but this just really irritates me, thank you for lending an ear <_< :construction:

[TheDeadTree]

Well, firstly,

A roman soldier wasn't born a roman soldier. He was born a person, and naturally had values instilled in him as he grew up.

An Orc is an evil perversion of an Elf, by the original embodyment of all that is wrong, and twisted, Morgoth.

While the soldier may act cruely, he still has a choice. An Orc was created for the purpose of destruction, death, and filth from the very beginning.

Also, you have to remeber that the LOTR are fantasy books, not history. History has many shades of grey, while the typical fantasy themes tend to be pretty much black and white. Would you want to read a book that spends fifty pages exploring the hidden doubt of Grishnak?

[loveme4whoiam]

The "wild men" were from places that were very desolate, due to the Numenoreans pushing them out when they moved in. It doesn't necessarily follow that they are technologically crude. The orcs, while definitely being crude when it comes to technology, sociology and just about everything else, there are a lot of them. Its all well and good that, for example Gondor, has its highly trained and well-equipped army of about 50,000 (this is just me guessing, it could be alot less), but if it comes up against 200,000 or 300,000 blood-thristy Orcs being driven by fear of their master, then the point is moot really.

By making the enemies of the good guys crude but numerous, Tolkien made forces of good seem more heroic; standing as a bastion against the torrent of evil pouring down upon them like black locusts, that sort of thing. It serves a literary purpose to write the Enemy as numerous but crude.

BTW; its not exactly a fair comparison with the Punic Wars. The Romans and the Carthaginians were both technologically skilled. The reason Hannibal killed so many Romans was due to his skill as a general, something that Tolkien missed out of his books (however, this is explained away by looking at his writing style. Sorry that i have to be so pedantic, but i'm a military history student and i feel its my duty to speak up. :lol:

[the_stalker]

TheDeadTree, on Jan 17 2004, 10:48 PM, said:

Well, firstly,

A roman soldier wasn't born a roman soldier. He was born a person, and naturally had values instilled in him as he grew up.

An Orc is an evil perversion of an Elf, by the original embodyment of all that is wrong, and twisted, Morgoth.

While the soldier may act cruely, he still has a choice. An Orc was created for the purpose of destruction, death, and filth from the very beginning.

Also, you have to remeber that the LOTR are fantasy books, not history. History has many shades of grey, while the typical fantasy themes tend to be pretty much black and white. Would you want to read a book that spends fifty pages exploring the hidden doubt of Grishnak?

i wasnt really talking much of the orcs (in no way, i wouldnt want to read 50 pages of an orc simply sitting in a tower and then getting into an arguement with another then eating him) :lol:
i was much more refering to the MEN of sauron, like the mouth of sauron
but this explains alot about them, thanks

[Theta Orionis]

Well - the Nazgul were kings of men once who were corrupted by the rings... and they were not ill-equipped or primitive.

[the_subliminator!]

Well, the Mouth of Sauron was a Black Numenorean, making him a descendant of the Numenoreans, and therefore akin to the Dunedain of Gondor and Arnor. There are bound to be others like him in Sauron's army. The Corsair mercenaries who Aragorn frightened off with the army of the Dead are even more closely related to the Dunedain of Gondor because they are the losers in a relatively recent (in the scope of all 3 ages) civil war in Gondor--specifically Umbar. The Southron culture always seemed to me to be relatively advanced in the manner of the medieval Arabs/Turks/Indians. I'm not sure, but I seem to recall a passage in the appendices which mentions the Gondorian Kings sending their sons to the Southron courts in order to learn about their culture. And come to think of it, it seems to me that the Southrons were meant to be a kind of character foil to the Rohirrim--meaning that they owed fealty to Mordor, rode on horses and Mumakil (oliphaunts), and a great chieftan of theirs is slain by Theoden before he is in turn slain. Also, the books mention a culture of men who were slaves of Sauron that farmed the fields around the large lake in Mordor (Nurnen, I think). Perhaps these were some of the brains behind much of Sauron's siege machinery, etc? It hardly strikes me that any given orc is bright enough to have even a rudimentary grasp of engineering.

And addressing the other mindless hordes, Tolkien was a fan and student of Nordic epics such as Beowulf. One of the characteristics of an epic is for the hero(es) to face overwhelming odds and overcome a great evil.
Also, there were other theatres of war during the War of the Ring, such as the Lonely Mountain, etc (more on this in the appendices). Perhaps the besiegers here are better equipped and organized? Just a thought. ^_^

And another thing! (Wow, I just keep on thinking of more stuff!) I seem to recall an episode (I think it's when Shagrat and Gorbag are talking after taking Frodo to the tower or Cirith Ungol) where two orcs are lamenting the fact that they have to march off to war when all they would rather be doing is quietly robbing passing travelers. While they are still evil, it would seem that even orcs don't necessarily like total war if they can avoid it.

Anyway, maybe this helps flesh out the evil masses a bit more.


Oh, it just occurred to me that perhaps this is a dead thread. . . forgive me as this is my first post. lol

[Daerk]

Hmmm... it seems most of you underestimate the skills of the evil races of Endor...

-- D

[the_subliminator!]

kfmccall, on Jan 18 2004, 12:53 AM, said:

sheesh, just because the orc/goblin/evil armor looks messed up, ragged, and uncomfortable doesnt mean its crap. Maybe they just made good armor that didnt look too nice?

good call kfmccall. After all, it doesn't have to be pretty to be functional. I think my computer is a good example. . .

[Elrol]

Another thing you must remember is that forces of darkness were more easily allied with one another because they had a common goal, to rule all, and they were easily corrupted into things because they had a one track mind. While the world of men, elves and dwarves is divided they each keep to their own and don't like to associate with one another, and even within the world of men the different kingdoms don't get along. For instance Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur, never got along, they were at war all the time, and at one point Arthedain allied with Angmar to defeat the other two. And Angmar was an ally of Sauron.

Think of it this way. If I was to walk up to you tell you that I have a solution to your problem of being ran out of your lands (like the wainriders), or your land conquered (like the harad) wouldn't you jump at it. People are more likely to unite for revenge than to save the world. They are usually more concerned about getting what they want for themselves, than saving the world. Now if I walked up to you and said, hey we are starting a crusade to save the world, your not goin to join me as readily. It's just the way things are. And lastly, the orcs, and such creatures have nothing to lose. They don't have love, or passion, dreams, hopes desires, as the worlds of men, elves, and dwarves do. They have nothing to live for, and thus have nothing to lose in dying in battle. Whereas Elves, Men, and Dwarves, have many things to lose in battle.

I've said my peace


-The Raven-out