[Tinduriel]

If I remember correctly orcs have a will of their own, and if their master(s) aren't near they do what they want. So they are living things and a race as are Elves, Men etc. So the question is what happens to them after their death. We know that elves go to the halls of Mandos, and that they are bound to Arda till the Words end. And we know that men leave the confines of this world behind after their death. But I dont know for sure where they go, maybe to the halls of Ilúvatar. From where they join to the second music and the re-making of the world. Maiar and Valar join that music too. And hobbits are some sub-race of men so I believe they have the same fate as men. Dwarfs believe that they have a place in the second music too, and their co-maker Aule has prepared a place for them to wait for its coming. So everything has their place. But where do orcs fit?

The Silmarillion states that Orcs were bred from captured elves. So do Orcs go to the halls of Mandos too. That doesn't sound right to me, but it is a good theory. And following this line of logic where goes the Uruk-hai after leaving the living world. They were born from the cross breeding of Orcs and Men right? Are they like half-elves. Do they get to choose their wating place?

From elsewhere (don't remember from where) I've read that Orcs were actually bred from captured Men. This would make things much easier becouse then they and all of their sub-races would just leave Eä, like men do.

Or could they just be cast to the void after their death with their master(s)?

Im just taking wild guesses here. So what do you guys think?

PS. I have only read the Silmarillion, LotR and the unfinished tales. So if there is some info about these things in some other books and someone has that knowledge please enlighten me.

[Ancalagon]

They are cast into the abyss, or the void, with their masters. Since they are Orcs, one of the most accursed abomination ever to see the light of day (or not) created by Morgoth, they share the same fate with their Dark Masters...yeah...

[Kahenraz]

So much for there ever being a 'good orc' eh?

[Tinduriel]

Ok I see your point. But still isn't it said that Melkor or Morgoth couldn't create anything compeletely of his own not at least with free will. So he perverted the creation of Ilúvatar. They are bred from a previously normal elve or man. So they still are somehow Ilúvatars creation. I just want to know if you know that for a fact (tolkiens own written word) or is that just your personal POV. I don't think it would be even fair (supposing that they (orcs) even have spirits or souls like other races do) that they are just cast in to the void. I mean orginaly they didn't choose to serve the dark lord(s), but he made them do so. So what then happens to the spirits of those men who too served Sauron or Morgoth. In my understanding they still have the same fate that other men. But than again it is said that live isn't fair (life is a bich), so why should death be any different.

[Ancalagon]

I am not wholly certain Tolkien ever specified what happens to Orcs (regardless that they were once Elves) after they die. I am sure they don't go to The Halls of Mandos, but since they are a perversion of the Elves (which is the most hatefull thing Melkor did in the eyes of Eru) I would think they all share the same fate as their Evil Masters. As far as Men go, I have no idea, since no one, save Eru, knows where Men go after they die. They don't go to Mandos, but they go elsewhere, yet it is never said.

[Darnoc]

That was probably the only thing I didn't like about Tolkien: Orcs are just plain evil from the beginning, don't have any choice, they are just the way they are. I never liked it when someone assumed that someone was evil or good from the beginning. If you are evil or good is not a matter of your origin, but of your choice. So if Tolkien's works would be more realistic, there should be at least some good orcs. With men it is realistic, there are both good and bad men. But orcs are just all evil, evil, evil. I somewhat pity the orcs, because they can't choose the way they want to live. Is it an orcs fault that he was created the way he is? Tolkien took away the free will of the orcs. I think the only races which have really a free will are men, elves, hobbits, dwarves and ainur (probably also ents), because at those races there are some good and some bad. But orcs (and every orcish sub-race), trolls and dragons are just bad.

[Daerk]

Orcs are twisted Avari, captured since the awakening of the Elves.

This means that the elves that were corrupted by Morgoth were the elves that made the decision not to believe the Valar's proposal and not to begin the journey to Aman.

Orcs are therefore generally the elves that "screwed up" their chance to go to Aman, and were subsequently captured by Morgoth and his creatures and tormented and twisted into the foul beings they are.

-- D

[Tar-Palantir]

Darnoc, on Jan 10 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

That was probably the only thing I didn't like about Tolkien: Orcs are just plain evil from the beginning, don't have any choice, they are just the way they are. I never liked it when someone assumed that someone was evil or good from the beginning. If you are evil or good is not a matter of your origin, but of your choice. So if Tolkien's works would be more realistic, there should be at least some good orcs. With men it is realistic, there are both good and bad men. But orcs are just all evil, evil, evil. I somewhat pity the orcs, because they can't choose the way they want to live. Is it an orcs fault that he was created the way he is? Tolkien took away the free will of the orcs. I think the only races which have really a free will are men, elves, hobbits, dwarves and ainur (probably also ents), because at those races there are some good and some bad. But orcs (and every orcish sub-race), trolls and dragons are just bad.

I'm not an Tolkien expert but I think that Orcs indeed have a will of their own, they're just not smart enough to be "good", since their culture is all about fighting, killing etc and they're tought that they should be like that from the beginning of their life it's just natural for them. And the fact that they get killed on sight by any man/elf that sees them does make it easier for them to be "good" about trolls I think they're more like animals, a lion for instance isn't classed as "evil" just because it kills an antilope(sp?) or something like that, but it's their natural instinct the few trolls you see in the books (and Bilbo, I haven't read silmarilliion yet so I don't know if there are any there) are more like "classic fairy-tale" trolls (big and turns to stone while exposed to sunlight) while in the movie they're actually just big animals with a club.. so I actually think that Tolkien is realistic since in the Orc culture there is a deep hatred against mankind and vice versa which makes it just natural.

End of speech. :shifty:

[Spade]

Darnoc, on Jan 10 2004, 01:01 PM, said:

That was probably the only thing I didn't like about Tolkien: Orcs are just plain evil from the beginning, don't have any choice, they are just the way they are. I never liked it when someone assumed that someone was evil or good from the beginning. If you are evil or good is not a matter of your origin, but of your choice. So if Tolkien's works would be more realistic, there should be at least some good orcs. With men it is realistic, there are both good and bad men. But orcs are just all evil, evil, evil. I somewhat pity the orcs, because they can't choose the way they want to live. Is it an orcs fault that he was created the way he is?

1)Think about your source material. Tolkien wrote his books like a history. And history is written by winners. I do a lot of Military History work (it's my major). You read books from two different places about the same period, and you'd think you were reading about a two different wars. History is written by winners (or those who have hung heroes if you prefer), and Tolkien's works reflect that. It would be totally out of character to praise a good orc IF one did indeed exist. It would be like combing late Roman documents and finding one praising the Huns. Tolkien never writes the books like an "objective observer".


2)Orcs are evil in the books. You can feel bad for them, but they were created FOR evil. Don't think of them as "people", they weren't created like that. It's not like they evolved and became evil, it's just how they are "hardwired". Orcs are programmed to be evil. Think of them as sentiant tanks if that makes you feel better. Orcs have free will so far as it remains within their "programming", which is already set on "evil". Sorry to use a computer analogy, but it's the best I can do. If you aren't created with the ability to do "good" in the first place, you just can't. It's like me and foreign languages (and guess who has a Russian quiz tomorrow.)
Orcs are always evil because they were created to be evil.

[seregmegil]

As I see, it's like in Vampire the game from White Wolf, a friend of mine ask me why I gangrel have to be like a hippie animal lover . That's if you are a hippie animal lover gangrel and you want to embrace someone, you will embrace another one who will think like you and will follow the same "starndart".

I think also there can be some diferent individuals, but they are rare.

And if you compare with Gay people (I don't want to insult noone), if you are gay, you don't will say it if you are in the Inquisition times becase they will cut you in two pieces starting by the ass and ending in the head (that's real). I think it you are a "good" orc, you don't will say it because the will kill you XD.

Sorry for my english, I don't have time to correct it (Working)